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 how many "final" Judgements?

To All

There must be thousands of threads on eschatology in the archives, but this is a fairly specific question. Some people teach that there is more than one Resurrection and more than one Judgement, at separate times. For example they separate the "Bema" and the "Great White Throne" judgements.

I have even heard the idea that there is a separate judgement for Jews, (after the rest of us have been "raptured"???)

Can anyone give a simple summary of these different ideas, or point me to a source which will explain them? I would especially like information on the last one; I've never actually heard it expounded, and have only the vaguest idea of its origins what exactly it says and what scripture is used to support it. I have an idea that it may have originated with the Plymouth Brethren, or J N Derby, but that's about it.

Personally I think there's probably only one Final Judgement, as in the parable of the sheep and the goats, but would like to get the other ideas sorted in my mind, if only to decide whether I agree with them or not!

Bema for example is simply the word for the platform which a judge ascended to give judgement, while a throne is the seat of a king, who also of course pronounces judgement.

I think they are probably just describing different aspects of the same event...


Thanks


Jeannette

 2007/4/16 16:05
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: how many "final" Judgements?

One of the worst doctrines to come out of Dispensationalism is the creation of multiple judgments. For example, they will say that Christians will only be judged according to which rewards they get. From All about God
“Bema Seat - What Is It and When Is It?
The concept of the Bema Seat comes from the ancient Olympics, where a judge would sit on the Bema Seat at the finish line. The judge's purpose was to determine what position the runners came in-first, second, and so on-and then to give out the appropriate rewards. That is the imagery behind what is known as the Bema Seat.”

But is this definition biblical? Below is every instance of the Bema seat in scripture:
Mt 27:19, “When he was set down on the judgment seat, his wife sent unto him, saying, Have thou nothing to do with that just man: for I have suffered many things this day in a dream because of him.”
Joh 19:13, “When Pilate therefore heard that saying, he brought Jesus forth, and sat down in the judgment seat in a place that is called the Pavement, but in the Hebrew, Gabbatha.”

What we have here is Pilate sitting on his judgment seat, judging Jesus. This is not just a judgment of rewards…Pilate was not deciding which metal Jesus should receive.

Ac 18:12, “And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,”
Ac 18:16, “And he drave them from the judgment seat.”
Ac 18:17, “Then all the Greeks took Sosthenes, the chief ruler of the synagogue, and beat him before the judgment seat. And Gallio cared for none of those things. ”
Ac 25:6, “And when he had tarried among them more than ten days, he went down unto Caesarea; and the next day sitting on the judgment seat commanded Paul to be brought. ”
Ac 25:10, “Then said Paul, I stand at Caesar's judgment seat, where I ought to be judged: to the Jews have I done no wrong, as thou very well knowest. ”
Ac 25:17, “Therefore, when they were come hither, without any delay on the morrow I sat on the judgment seat, and commanded the man to be brought forth.”

What we have here is Paul standing before the judgment seat of Rome. Paul is not waiting to receive a crown, Paul is giving his account and is in danger of being sentenced to death.

Ro 14:10, “But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. ”

2Co 5:10, “For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”

Now, Paul (as we saw in Acts) was very familiar with the Bema seat as he appeared before it many times. Does it make sense to assume that Paul is speaking of a ‘special reward platform’ or the judgment seat of a ruler who has the power to decide if you live or die? I understand it to be the latter. Also, notice the end of 2 Cor. 5:10, it says that we will be judged according to what we have done, whether good or bad .

There is one judgment in which God will separate the sheep from the goats. The Biblical standard is that all people will be sorted by nature and judged by works.

 2007/4/16 16:29Profile









 Re: how many "final" Judgements?

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
I have even heard the idea that there is a separate judgement for Jews, (after the rest of us have been "raptured"???)

Can anyone give a simple summary of these different ideas, or point me to a source which will explain them? [b]I would especially like information on the last one;[/b] I've never actually heard it expounded, and have only the vaguest idea of its origins what exactly it says and what scripture is used to support it. I have an idea that it may have originated with the Plymouth Brethren, or J N Derby, but that's about it.


What about this one?

Thanks

J

 2007/4/16 17:53
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I know of no such judgment for Jews only. I have not found it in scripture.

 2007/4/16 19:48Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Here is a thread I started awhile back on the topic.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6743&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go] But after this the...[/url]


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/4/17 9:57Profile









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
I know of no such judgment for Jews only. I have not found it in scripture.

Neither have I, but have heard it from a friend who was brought up in the Brethren, but I never really understood what grounds she had for thinking this was correct - it sounded very complicated when she tried to explain!

Jeannette

 2007/4/17 13:38









 Re:

Quote:

PreachParsly wrote:
Here is a thread I started awhile back on the topic.

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=6743&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go] But after this the...[/url]

Thanks, though it seems to be quite a long thread! Can you indicate roughly where a discussion of this particular idea comes in the thread - what page if possible - to save time?

Jeannette

 2007/4/17 13:41
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: how many "final" Judgements?

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
To All

There must be thousands of threads on eschatology in the archives, but this is a fairly specific question....

I have even heard the idea that there is a separate judgement for Jews, (after the rest of us have been "raptured"???)

Can anyone give a simple summary of these different ideas...

I have an idea that it may have originated with the Plymouth Brethren, or J N Derby, but that's about it...

I think they are probably just describing different aspects of the same event...


Thanks


Jeannette





There are some who believe that all Christians will be raptured, or killed in the Tribulation, and that only the Remnant of the Jews survive the judgement of the Sheep and Goats. Thus, they believe that only the Jews go into the millenium, as this is the end of Jacob's trouble, and also God's saving of the remnant.

From what I gather, this belief in the Jews being judged seperately is because the Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

Presumably, in their viewpoint, all Christians would be safely in heaven at the Judgement of the Goats and the Lambs; the wicked pagan's and those Marked of the Beast sorted out as goats; and thus, only the Remnant promised by God to the Jews move on to the Millenium. (I restated on purpose, to show the logical progression.)

Who 'They' are is beyond me, and although this is logical in a strange way, the viewpoint allows no leeway for anyone but Jews to survive the Tribulation [i][b]and[/b][/i] the Judgement of the Goats and the Lambs.

Does this match the confused mess that the lady you spoke to said?

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/18 1:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:

UniqueWebRev wrote:
There are some who believe that all Christians will be raptured, or killed in the Tribulation, and that only the Remnant of the Jews survive the judgement of the Sheep and Goats. Thus, they believe that only the Jews go into the millenium, as this is the end of Jacob's trouble, and also God's saving of the remnant.

From what I gather, this belief in the Jews being judged seperately is because the Tribulation is the Time of Jacob's Trouble.

Presumably, in their viewpoint, all Christians would be safely in heaven at the Judgement of the Goats and the Lambs; the wicked pagan's and those Marked of the Beast sorted out as goats; and thus, only the Remnant promised by God to the Jews move on to the Millenium. (I restated on purpose, to show the logical progression.)

Who 'They' are is beyond me, and although this is logical in a strange way, the viewpoint allows no leeway for anyone but Jews to survive the Tribulation [i][b]and[/b][/i] the Judgement of the Goats and the Lambs.

Does this match the confused mess that the lady you spoke to said?

Blessings,

Thanks, a very clear explanation. That's more or less the idea that I heard, although my friend wasn't confused about it.

I got the impression that she had been taught this theory as Truth and couldn't mentally move from it to consider any alternative. Usually she had a very enquiring mind and loved discussing Scripture, but on htis point she couldn't seem to budge. I knew too little about this theory myself to be able to put forward any other interpretations.

Love in Him

Jeannette

PS Forrest, did you get the pics of Wales I sent by email a while back? Keep meaning to pm you but forget!

 2007/4/18 5:41
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Little Gift's P.S.

Jeannette,

My site is evidently overburdened, and won't forward e-mail anymore. Don't want a bigger site yet, since I don't want to ask for $$$, and for my messages the site is adequate in all other ways. After all, the weekly message, (or more) is what counts.

Can you resend to [email protected]? I'm opening that address on my site and to everyone.

I'd love to see them, and chat again. All that wonderful greeeeen!

Blessings, from dried out Southern California. (Weird, but California is very much like Israel.)


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/19 8:46Profile





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