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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Is Limited Atonement heresy?

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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Jesse,
What you are saying is that when Jesus died He did not actually secure anyone's salvation. You say that Christ's work of atonement was designed by God to atone for the sins of everyone in the world. It made possible the salvation of everyone, but made certain the salvation of no one. By your understanding the design is therefore unlimited and indefinite.
The Reformed view holds that Christ's atonement was designed and intended only for the elect. Christ laid down His life for His sheep and only for His sheep. Furthermore, the Atonement insured salvation for all the elect. The Atonement was an actual, not merely potential, work of redemption. In this view there is no possibility that God's design and intent for the Atonement could be frustrated. God's purpose in salvation is sure.
(R.C. Sproul)

 2007/4/16 22:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:
If I was predestined to be a Calvinist, I will inevitably become one. Until then, I will exercise my free will and remain an Armenian. :)



:-) :-) :-)

 2007/4/16 22:04
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
Jesse,
What you are saying is that when Jesus died He did not actually secure anyone's salvation. You say that Christ's work of atonement was designed by God to atone for the sins of everyone in the world. It made possible the salvation of everyone, but made certain the salvation of no one. By your understanding the design is therefore unlimited and indefinite.


[b]Amen![/b]
Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
The Reformed view holds that Christ's atonement was designed and intended only for the elect. Christ laid down His life for His sheep and only for His sheep. Furthermore, the Atonement insured salvation for all the elect.


This would make a finite atonement, And you would have to get passed:
[b]1John 2:2[/b] [color=990000] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only[/color](the elect)[color=990000], but also for the sins of the whole world.[/color]

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
The Atonement was an actual, not merely potential, work of redemption.


unlimited and indefinite Atonement is an actual work of God.

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
In this view there is no possibility that God's design and intent for the Atonement could be frustrated. God's purpose in salvation is sure.


To frustrate the Atonement would make it worthless, however, It is for even the ones who don't take the oppertunity to aply it to their own lives; doing that does not take the value away nore does it take the effectiveness way.
Therfore, God's purpose in salvation is sure!

It is still sure for all mankind.



 2007/4/16 22:47Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.

This just came up in the random article after viewing this thread...




[b]Selective Scripture Screening[/b] by A.W. Tozer

Heresy is not so much rejecting as selecting. The heretic simply selects the parts of the Scripture he wants to emphasize and lets the rest go.
This is shown by the etymology of the word heresy and by the practice of the heretic. "Beware," an editorial scribe of the fourteenth century warned his readers in the preface to a book. "Beware thou take not one thing after thy affection and liking, and leave another: for that is the condition of an heretique. But take everything with other." The old scribe knew well how prone we are to take to ourselves those parts of the truth that please us and ignore the other parts. And that is heresy.

Almost every cult with which we have any acquaintance practices this art of selecting and ignoring. The no-hell cults, for example, habitually stress everything in the Bible that seems to support their position and play down or explain away all the passages that deal with eternal punishment.


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/16 23:02Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
If I was predestined to be a Calvinist, I will inevitably become one. Until then, I will exercise my free will and remain an Armenian. :)



This is a cute sound bite, but sadly it exposes your lack of knowledge of Reformed Theology.

 2007/4/17 8:40Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

“World” is a difficult word to properly define. The Greek word is Kosmos. World can mean earth, all people in the earth, certain people in the earth, Gentiles, society, creation, etc. World is a word that many Arminians sometimes define as ‘every single person’.

So how is John using world in 1 John 2:2? Take a look at Romans 11:11-13:

"11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,"

Did you catch how Paul uses world and Gentiles interchangeably in that passage? This is the context that John uses 1 John 2:2. We must remember that the early church struggled with accepting Gentiles into the fellowship (See Galatians and Acts) John makes it perfectly clear that the Messiah is not just for Jews but is for Gentiles (the world) as well.

 2007/4/17 9:02Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
If I was predestined to be a Calvinist, I will inevitably become one. Until then, I will exercise my free will and remain an Armenian. :)



Jesse you may use whatever free will you think you have but ultimately the government of Armenia will have to decide if you will be Armenian or not. :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/4/17 10:05Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

In deciding between Calvinism and Arminianism, you must first divide the Word of God in three parts, choose one of them, and throw the others away.

 2007/4/18 16:47Profile
mamaluk
Member



Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524


 Re: Kosmos



Quote:
World” is a difficult word to properly define. The Greek word is Kosmos. World can mean earth, all people in the earth, certain people in the earth, Gentiles, society, creation, etc. World is a word that many Arminians sometimes define as ‘every single person’.



[b]Brother Jay[/b],

I just came across this by A.Pink,

[i]It may appear to some of our readers that the exposition we have given of John 3:16 in the chapter on "Difficulties and Objections" is a forced and unnatural one, inasmuch as our definition of the term "world" seems to be out of harmony with the meaning and scope of this word in other passages, where, to supply the world of believers (God’s elect) as a definition of "world" would make no sense. Many have said to us, "Surely, ‘world’ means world, that is, you, me, and everybody." In reply we would say: We know from experience how difficult it is to set aside the "traditions of men" and come to a passage which we have heard explained in a certain way scores of times, and study it carefully for ourselves without bias Nevertheless, this is essential if we would learn the mind of God.

Many people suppose they already know the simple meaning of John 3:16, and therefore they conclude that no diligent study is required of them to discover the precise teaching of this verse. Needless to say, such an attitude shuts out any further light which they otherwise might obtain on the passage. Yet, if anyone will take a Concordance and read carefully the various passages in which the term "world" (as a translation of "kosmos") occurs, he will quickly perceive that to ascertain the precise meaning of, the word "world" in any given passage is not nearly so easy as is popularly supposed. The word "kosmos," and its English equivalent "world," is not used with a uniform significance in the New Testament. Very far from it. It is used in quite a number of different ways. Below we will refer to a few passages where this term occurs, suggesting a tentative definition in each case:

[b]"Kosmos" is used of the Universe as a whole: Acts 17:24 - "God that made the world and all things therein seeing that He is Lord of heaven and earth."

"Kosmos" is used of the earth: John 13:1; Ephesians 1:4, etc., etc.- "When Jesus knew that his hour was come that He should depart out of this world unto the Father, having loved His own which were in the world He loved them unto the end." "Depart out of this world" signifies, leave this earth. "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world." This expression signifies, before the earth was founded—compare Job 38:4 etc.

"Kosmos" is used of the world-system: John 12:31 etc. "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the Prince of this world be cast out"— compare Matthew 4:8 and 1 John 5:19, R. V.

"Kosmos" is used of the whole human race: Romans 3:19, etc.—"Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

"Kosmos" is used of humanity minus believers: John 15:18; Romans 3:6 "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ. "God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world." Here is another passage where "the world" cannot mean "you, me, and everybody," for believers will not be "judged" by God, see John 5:24. So that here, too, it must be the world of unbelievers which is in view.

"Kosmos" is used of Gentiles in contrast from Jews: Romans 11:12 etc. "Now if the fall of them (Israel) be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them (Israel) the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their (Israel’s) fulness." Note how the first clause in italics is defined by the latter clause placed in italics. Here, again, "the world" cannot signify all humanity for it excludes Israel!

"Kosmos" is used of believers only: John 1:29; 3:16, 17; 6:33; 12:47; 1 Corinthians 4:9; 2 Corinthians 5:19. We leave our readers to turn to these passages, asking them to note, carefully, exactly what is said and predicated of "the world" in each place.[/b]

Thus it will be seen that "kosmos" has at least seven clearly defined different meanings in the New Testament. It may be asked, Has then God used a word thus to confuse and confound those who read the Scriptures? We answer, No! nor has He written His Word for lazy people who are too dilatory, or too busy with the things of this world, or, like Martha, so much occupied with "serving," they have no time and no heart to "search" and "study" Holy Writ! Should it be asked further, But how is a searcher of the Scriptures to know which of the above meanings the term "world" has in any given passage? The answer is: This may be ascertained by a careful study of the context, by diligently noting what is predicated of "the world" in each passage, and by prayer fully consulting other parallel passages to the one being studied. The principal subject of John 3:16 is Christ as the Gift of God. The first clause tells us what moved God to "give" His only begotten Son, and that was His great "love;" the second clause informs us for whom God "gave" His Son, and that is for, "whosoever (or, better, ‘every one’) believeth;" while the last clause makes known why God "gave" His Son (His purpose), and that is, that everyone that believeth "should not perish but have everlasting life." That "the world" in John 3:16 refers to the world of believers (God’s elect), in contradistinction from "the world of the ungodly" (2 Pet. 2:5), is established, unequivocally established, by a comparison of the other passages which speak of God’s "love." "God commendeth His love toward US"—the saints, Romans 5:8. "Whom the Lord loveth He chasteneth"—every son, Hebrews 12:6. "We love Him, because He first loved US"—believers, 1 John 4:19. The wicked God "pities" (see Matt. 18:33). Unto the unthankful and evil God is "kind" (see Luke 6:35). The vessels of wrath He endures "with much long-suffering" (see Rom. 9:22). But "His own" God "loves"!![/i]

I have been reading The Sovereignty of God, by A.Pink, thoroughly enjoying and encouraged by it, praise God..


[b]Brother Roaringlamb,[/b]

Quote:
Many of the passages that refer to Christ being the Saviour of the world, are written to Jews who thought the Messiah was only for the Jewish race, and not for the World or nations like the Romans and Greeks.



Yeah, that's my understanding as well, praise God, the more I learn of Sovereign grace, the more grateful I become, and the more solemn I reckon my responsibility before God..

Living in such evil time, I simply can't live without knowing God is Sovereign..not we, not satan..but God supreme! Praise Him so very much!


In Christ

 2007/4/20 0:24Profile
saltlicker20
Member



Joined: 2005/11/11
Posts: 57
Grand Saline, TX

 Re:

Isn't modern day Calvinism and Arminianism the equivalent to the Corinithan "I am of Apollos", "I am of Paul" division??


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DO

 2007/4/23 11:50Profile





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