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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : purgatory

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JaySaved wrote:
In Luke chapters 11 through 13 we read some very passionate words by our Lord Jesus. Chapter 11 ends with Jesus pronouncing Woes upon the hypocritical Pharisees and Chapter 12 picks up with some intense discussion. In verses 4-5 Jesus says:
"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!”

In verses 8-10 Jesus says, “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”

In verse 15 Jesus says, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.”

In verse 21 Jesus tells us the point of the parable of the rich fool, “So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” and then in verse 31 tells us what we need to be doing: “But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you.”

Jesus sums up this section with the words in verse 34 “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Then Jesus tells another parable about our readiness:
Verse 36, “Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.” We are to be ready for Jesus’ return.

Verse 48, “From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.” This is the point of the parable of the wicked servant. Much is required from those whom much has been given. It is a warning to people who profess salvation that we must live and act according to the Biblical standard.

In verses 58-59 Jesus tells everyone that they must be reconciled to God before the judgment because at the judgment there is no redemption, “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. "I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.”

These verses do not teach purgatory, but they emphasize that the punishment is very long in duration. In those days it was impossible to pay back a debt if one was in prison because they could not work. ‘Until you have paid the very last cent’ is a sentencing of life.

In Luke 13:3 Jesus summarizes the entire point of his previous discussion “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Jesus is not teaching purgatory in which we will have to work off our debt, but is teaching us to repent…now or else.

Strong words from our Savior.

Thanks for that Jay, especially:
These verses do not teach purgatory, but they emphasize that the punishment is very long in duration. In those days it was impossible to pay back a debt if one was in prison because they could not work. ‘Until you have paid the very last cent’ is a sentencing of life.

I'd forgotten that the situation of someone in debt would have been so hopeless.

It seems it used to be the same here in the UK; the Fleet Prison in London was notorious. The famous novellist Charles Dickens wrote about it. They were simply locked up without any help at all. Unless inmates had someone outside to bring them food, or had a little money themselves, they literally starved to death.

So Jesus is describing a truly terrible and hopeless fate, to illustrate His teaching.


 2007/4/15 17:30



HomeFree89 wrote:

JaySaved wrote:
The problem with purgatory is that is says that Christ's sacrifice is not enough to purify us of our sins.

Titus 2:13-15 refutes this:
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Purgatory is a man-made doctrine that blasphemes the work of Christ on the cross.

Amen! If Christ couldn't cleanse us totally then His work is incomplete.


This is slightly off-topic but to add to this point, the Old Testament confirms the "once for all" nature of Christ's sacrifice in the incident where Moses smote the rock when he shouldn't have.
Numbers 20:7-9[i][color=003366]7 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. [b]Speak to the rock[/b] before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the Lord as He commanded him.10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and [b]struck the rock twice with his rod[/b]; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.
12 Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.
I think that "struck the rock twice" can mean "struck the rock a second time". The Lord told him to only speak to the rock, but he struck it instead. (compare 1Corinthians 10:4 [i][color=000099]4 "and all drank the same dspiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ."[/color][/i]

So the Lord takes it very seriously if we think the Rock can be struck more than once, that the Sacrifice of the Cross can be repeated. Jesus' death is indeed once for all, and cannot be imitated or repeated, or re-enacted (as is supposed to be done in the Catholic Mass).

These thoughts blessed me anyway...


 2007/4/15 17:52

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