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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : purgatory

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coolcap2007
Member



Joined: 2007/2/22
Posts: 29


 purgatory

there is scripture that sounds so much like purgatory is hinted it...just like jesus never says " I am God" but we find hints that he did calim to be god, why is it not the same with purgatory...when god says "you will not get out untill you have paid the last penny" what else could that mean? and when jesus says something about how someone who does not obey will be beaten with many stripes i think luke 12:47 but i mean be wrong...well some people do not obey and they are not beaten here on earth and when we die if there is not purgatory then we wont be beaten..so what does jesus mean we will be beaten for not obeying...what about when paul says in corinthians that our work will be tested and burned up if it doesnt work and we will escape as one escaping through flames...there are many scriptures that hint at purgatory just like that jesus is god...i dont want to believe in purgatory but im confused...what proof is there that there cant be purgatory and that even though the hints in the bible that really sound like purgatory are not really talking about it..where is the proof?

 2007/4/13 2:52Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2676
Nottingham, England

 Re: purgatory

For me, the final authority is scripture, I hope it is with you.

Let's look at a few verses, and ask a few questions as we go along.

2 Cor 5v10, 'For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ...

This is a certainty. When does it happen?

Heb 9v27, 'And as it is appointed for men to die once, after this the judgment.

It is after we die that we are judged. There is no more mercy. Mercy is for this life only.

Let's look at what it says in the book of Revelation.

Rev 21v8, 'But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

This scripture does not say that the lake of fire is eternal, but this next scripture does.

Rev 20v10, 'The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

For me, this is final. It tells us that hell is a place of everlasting punishment. No escape.

The teaching of purgatory is a false, man-made teaching.

How can you get clean in hell? Did not the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ do that?

Hope this has helped.

God bless.

 2007/4/13 4:42Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

2Corinthians 5:8Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

 2007/4/13 9:01Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2676
Nottingham, England

 Re:

Provost,
Could I ask, why did you use that scripture?

God bless.

 2007/4/13 9:12Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: purgatory

Quote:
when god says "you will not get out untill you have paid the last penny" what else could that mean?



When you read this verse, did you consider what the Bible says is just punishment for sin against the Eternal One? Just what (or who) is the price tag?

Matthew Henry said this, "divine justice will be for ever in the satisfying, but never satisfied."

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/4/13 9:20Profile









 Re:

Heb 9:27-28 And as [b]it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment[/b]: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There is no mention of a "purification" process, and then the judgment. The purification comes thru Christ's blood. If we could attain heaven by enduring purgatory then please tell me why Christ died? It is no longer salvation by faith, it is salvation by works... which is in keeping with Catholic doctrines.

Purgatory is a lie from hell.

Krispy

 2007/4/13 9:42
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

The problem with purgatory is that is says that Christ's sacrifice is not enough to purify us of our sins.

Titus 2:13-15 refutes this:
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Purgatory is a man-made doctrine that blasphemes the work of Christ on the cross.

 2007/4/13 9:58Profile









 Re: purgatory

Quote:

coolcap2007 wrote:
there is scripture that sounds so much like purgatory is hinted it...just like jesus never says " I am God" but we find hints that he did calim to be god, why is it not the same with purgatory...when god says "you will not get out untill you have paid the last penny" what else could that mean? and when jesus says something about how someone who does not obey will be beaten with many stripes i think luke 12:47 but i mean be wrong...well some people do not obey and they are not beaten here on earth and when we die if there is not purgatory then we wont be beaten..so what does jesus mean we will be beaten for not obeying...what about when paul says in corinthians that our work will be tested and burned up if it doesnt work and we will escape as one escaping through flames...there are many scriptures that hint at purgatory just like that jesus is god...i dont want to believe in purgatory but im confused...what proof is there that there cant be purgatory and that even though the hints in the bible that really sound like purgatory are not really talking about it..where is the proof?



Hi Coolcap

Thank you for your honest question.

Have the replies so far really answered...?
Quote:
[color=000099] ...when god says "you will not get out untill you have paid the last penny" what else could that mean? and when jesus says something about how someone who does not obey will be beaten with many stripes i think luke 12:47
...what about when paul says in corinthians that our work will be tested and burned up if it doesnt work and we will escape as one escaping through flames[/color]

A knee-jerk reaction, that this is a devilish, Catholic doctrine, may be true but doesn't answer what these scriptures DO mean!

I'm not sure of the anwer to the first example, and not sure how to [i]explain[/i] the second, though (I [i]think[/i] I know the answer :-?)

The third refers to the [i]works[/i] we do for the Lord, not our souls. There is no punishment, such as purgatory, only the loss of the [i][b]work [/b][/i]we have done.

It's like someone who is put in charge of a small factory producing hand-made goods. The owner gives us all the materials we need, and the skilled workmanship to make everything to his specifications. We work hard producing beautiful things, but dishonestly substitute gold paint and wood for pure gold; and jewellery with plastic instead of true precious gems. Then there's a fire in the factory. We escape with our lives but the goods are burned.

Nothing to show for all those years of labour, how tragic!

Can anyone explain the first two scriptures?

in Him

Jeannette

 2007/4/13 15:48
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

In Luke chapters 11 through 13 we read some very passionate words by our Lord Jesus. Chapter 11 ends with Jesus pronouncing Woes upon the hypocritical Pharisees and Chapter 12 picks up with some intense discussion. In verses 4-5 Jesus says:
"I say to you, My friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have no more that they can do. But I will warn you whom to fear: fear the One who, after He has killed, has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!”

In verses 8-10 Jesus says, “And I say to you, everyone who confesses Me before men, the Son of Man will confess him also before the angels of God; but he who denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God. "And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him.”

In verse 15 Jesus says, “Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions.”

In verse 21 Jesus tells us the point of the parable of the rich fool, “So is the man who stores up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.” and then in verse 31 tells us what we need to be doing: “But seek His kingdom, and these things will be added to you.”

Jesus sums up this section with the words in verse 34 “For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.”

Then Jesus tells another parable about our readiness:
Verse 36, “Be like men who are waiting for their master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that they may immediately open the door to him when he comes and knocks.” We are to be ready for Jesus’ return.

Verse 48, “From everyone who has been given much, much will be required; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.” This is the point of the parable of the wicked servant. Much is required from those whom much has been given. It is a warning to people who profess salvation that we must live and act according to the Biblical standard.

In verses 58-59 Jesus tells everyone that they must be reconciled to God before the judgment because at the judgment there is no redemption, “For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. "I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent.”

These verses do not teach purgatory, but they emphasize that the punishment is very long in duration. In those days it was impossible to pay back a debt if one was in prison because they could not work. ‘Until you have paid the very last cent’ is a sentencing of life.

In Luke 13:3 Jesus summarizes the entire point of his previous discussion “I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.” Jesus is not teaching purgatory in which we will have to work off our debt, but is teaching us to repent…now or else.

Strong words from our Savior.

 2007/4/13 16:23Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
The problem with purgatory is that is says that Christ's sacrifice is not enough to purify us of our sins.

Titus 2:13-15 refutes this:
"Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

Purgatory is a man-made doctrine that blasphemes the work of Christ on the cross.




Amen! If Christ couldn't cleanse us totally then His work is incomplete.

Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/4/13 21:33Profile





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