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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Tongues as Evidence?

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PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Krispy

It is true that not every account specifically states that the Baptism was accompanied by tongues, however Acts 8 does show that Baptism in the Holy Ghost is very distinct.

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Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
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What do you think is the basis for the author of Acts to state with such surety that they hadn't received the Holy Ghost, although they were already baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus ?

Also, John and Peter came to pray so they would receive the Holy Ghost - not to preach Repentance and Salvation. Philip had already done that. When they arrived they simply prayed for the new believers so they would receive the Holy Ghost. No mention is made of them preaching or correcting beforehand.

From another angle (although it's not proof in itself), do you think a "sign-less" baptism in the Holy Ghost that many people claim today would have impressed Simon the sorcerer to the point of offering money?

PassingThru

 2007/4/12 8:47Profile









 Re:

PT... please keep in mind the purpose of tongues as stated by Paul. It was a sign unto the Jews. Why? To show them that the Holy Spirit had come, and that Jesus was who He said He was, and that the Gentiles too had been accepted by God.

Every discussion about tongues needs to be held in that context.

So I need to ask... how many Jews do you know, and is your exercise of tongues a sign unto them?

The other side purpose of tongues was to witness to those whose language you do not know.

Other than that, there is no other purpose for tongues. This talk about a heavenly prayer language is strangely absent from scripture.

Now, one of the most often quoted passages of scripture in support of a later receiving of the Holy Spirit after salvation is Acts 19. However, what people miss (and I do not understand how someone can miss it) is that these people the Apostles were talking to [b]were not Christians[/b]. They were Jews who were following the teachings of John the Baptist, and had been baptized by John. But at that time they were not followers of Jesus. They had never heard of the Holy Spirit. So the Apostles explained things to them, and they received the Holy Spirit [b]at the time they were saved[/b].

Anyway, I believe that the Holy Spirit does give gifts. I believe in miracles. But I do not believe He acts in the same manner He did in Acts. If He did... where are the people being raised from the dead? Where are the healing of thousands? (I'll gag if someone cites Benny Hinn here!)

People have built a whole doctrine about tongues, and are subsequently abusing tongues, on scriptures in which Paul was scolding believers about their abuses of it! The church today is no different from the Corinthians. Paul was not encouraging them towards tongues, he was scolding them and encouraging them to put tongues in it's proper order... and in it's proper order, it's rather low.

Paul also taught that not all would speak in tongues, just as all are not pastors, etc. Thats an extremely clear passage of scripture. Therefore, tongues can not possibly be the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.

We can not expect to relive the book of Acts because God is not operating in the same way that He was then. The Holy Spirit moved in the way He did 2,000 years ago because it was the basis for how He founded the church.

Krispy

 2007/4/12 9:45
PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Krispy

Quote:

PT... please keep in mind the purpose of tongues as stated by Paul. It was a sign unto the Jews. Why? To show them that the Holy Spirit had come, and that Jesus was who He said He was, and that the Gentiles too had been accepted by God.

Every discussion about tongues needs to be held in that context.

...

Other than that, there is no other purpose for tongues. This talk about a heavenly prayer language is strangely absent from scripture.



Paul also states that tongues has the purpose of edifying the speaker himself. All other gifts have the purpose of edifying the Church.

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1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; [b]howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries[/b].
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue [b]edifieth himself[/b]; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
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Note that Paul's whole theme through this passage is directed to the purpose behind the gifts and their correct exercise to edify the church.

I know some will answer that he was talking about earthly languages, but the context in chapters 12-14 is spiritual gifts.

Quote:

So I need to ask... how many Jews do you know, and is your exercise of tongues a sign unto them?



I don't speak in tongues, nor do I consider myself baptized in the Holy Ghost.

I've met a couple of Jews, but I don't know any personally.

Quote:

Now, one of the most often quoted passages of scripture in support of a later receiving of the Holy Spirit after salvation is Acts 19. However, what people miss (and I do not understand how someone can miss it) is that these people the Apostles were talking to were not Christians. They were Jews who were following the teachings of John the Baptist, and had been baptized by John. But at that time they were not followers of Jesus. They had never heard of the Holy Spirit. So the Apostles explained things to them, and they received the Holy Spirit at the time they were saved.



Would you apply the same argument to Acts 8 ?

Quote:

Anyway, I believe that the Holy Spirit does give gifts. I believe in miracles. But I do not believe He acts in the same manner He did in Acts. If He did... where are the people being raised from the dead? Where are the healing of thousands?



I don't have a firm answer as to why, but I will venture a few guesses :-

1) A lot of people don't believe it is for today, so they reject it. The bible tells us to covet/desire the gifts. No asking, no receiving. No seeking, no finding.

2) Satan has managed to desecrate the gifts through emotionalism, misuse, etc, amongst those who do desire them or have them.

3) A lot of lives are polluted by an enormous media intake. Does anyone really expect to watch hours of soapies and still be overflowing with God's Spirit?

The fact that God's Precious Spirit will reside in a human being at all is one of the biggest miracles of salvation. I don't expect Him to reside where He is unwanted.

Quote:

(I'll gag if someone cites Benny Hinn here!)


I'm not exactly a fan of his. Would you gag if I cite Smith Wigglesworth ? :-)

What do you think about Evan Robert's references to the "Grand Blessing" ? Or Jackie Pullinger's comments on only getting results in Hong Kong after praying in tongues for 15 minutes per day?

Quote:

People have built a whole doctrine about tongues, and are subsequently abusing tongues, on scriptures in which Paul was scolding believers about their abuses of it!

The church today is no different from the Corinthians. Paul was not encouraging them towards tongues, he was scolding them and encouraging them to put tongues in it's proper order... and in it's proper order, it's rather low.




Although he rebuked misuse, he didn't discourage the seeking of tongues. He instructed them to covet/desire them, but he also admonished them to seek further to get the gifts that help the church as a whole.

Quote:

Paul also taught that not all would speak in tongues, just as all are not pastors, etc. Thats an extremely clear passage of scripture. Therefore, tongues can not possibly be the initial evidence of being filled with the Holy Spirit.



Agreed, but the infilling of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by definite evidence.

Quote:

We can not expect to relive the book of Acts because God is not operating in the same way that He was then. The Holy Spirit moved in the way He did 2,000 years ago because it was the basis for how He founded the church.



That has no scriptural backing. Paul encouraged Christians to seek the gifts in Cor 12-14. Jesus alluded to it in his comparison between an earthly father and our heavenly Father in Luke 11.

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Luk 11:13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly, Father [b]give the Holy Spirit to them that ask[/b] him?
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Note that receiving the gifts involves asking for them, and that different gifts are mentioned here as well (in the earthly comparison).

PassingThru

 2007/4/12 12:34Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Agreed, but the infilling of the Holy Spirit is accompanied by definite evidence.



You're absolutely right... and it is evidenced by our lives.

Quote:
What do you think about Evan Robert's references to the "Grand Blessing" ? Or Jackie Pullinger's comments on only getting results in Hong Kong after praying in tongues for 15 minutes per day?



I dont know who these folks are, but keep in mind that I am not rejecting the gift of tongues. I reject the abuse of tongues, and the resulting false doctrines that surround the abuse of tongues. So I cant answer this question.

Quote:
1) A lot of people don't believe it is for today, so they reject it. The bible tells us to covet/desire the gifts. No asking, no receiving. No seeking, no finding.

2) Satan has managed to desecrate the gifts through emotionalism, misuse, etc, amongst those who do desire them or have them.

3) A lot of lives are polluted by an enormous media intake. Does anyone really expect to watch hours of soapies and still be overflowing with God's Spirit?



Do you think it was any different 2,000 years ago? I dont. How many times, over and over again, in 1 & 2 Kings and 1 & 2 Chronicles does it say "and he did evil in the sight of the Lord" in reference to individual kings in Judah and Israel? [b]Thirty-three times[/b]... I contend there is nothing new under the sun.

Quote:
I don't speak in tongues, nor do I consider myself baptized in the Holy Ghost.



All I have to say about that is you better get saved then... because without the Holy Spirit in your life it is impossible to be saved. I contend that you are saved (because you confess here that you are)... and that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit. You have been deceived into thinking you dont, so you're seeking something that you already have.

Krispy

 2007/4/12 13:24
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re:

I have to say this, I feel that I am privilidged above many in the church because I get the oppurtunity to meet personally many nationals from around the world. You generally see an increase in miricles and signs and wonders in poorer countries and also in pagan steeped countries. There's a brother in Christ who comes over from Central Africa (he oversees I believe 120 churches as well as schools and orphanages). This brother has uncommon faith and the things that happen in his neck of the woods is amazing, and yes, it seems to follow him here too, but he has a prayer life thats several hours a day and while he's here he refuses to watch any american TV. He comes here once every 2 or 3 years and does what God wants him to than goes back. There has been in the last couple of years documentated cases of individuals raised from the dead. Blinded eyes opened, the deaf made to hear etc... But because mainstream christianity can't profit from it you hear very little about these testamonies in the "TV" ministries hoopla.

That said, in the book of Acts if you read it through in one sitting, you have no other conclusions you can make about the outward experience of the recieving of the Holy Spirit. As to the other giftings it must be rembered that before Jesus died the disciples (more than just the 12) were exercising mircles, healings, deliverences, the prophetic gifts, etc....

In the tongues issue we have some who say it has to be an earthly or known tongue, in other words someone somewhere will be able to translate it verbatim, two things to note,1) Translation is not interpetation 2)1Co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels NOW where did Paul get the idea that we could even approach unto the tongues of Angels, an earthly language, a heavenly language???
Just spend some time and prayerfully think about it.


_________________
D.Miller

 2007/4/12 15:36Profile









 Re:

I dont dispute your post, Dohzman. I would like to point out one thing concerning tongues of "men and angels"... Paul was using an extreme example when he said this. It's like if I say something like "If I drive 45 mph or 200 mph, if I take my hands off the wheel I'm not driving safely". Am I going to drive 200 mph on the road? No...

But yet, people have contrived this whole heavenly prayer language on a verse that was being used as an absurd example. He said if he spoke in the tongues of men and angel and had not love, he was nothing.

But I have heard entire sermons on the first half of this verse declaring that we need this heavenly prayer language. It's amazing what man can do with scripture. And this is a recent doctrine. It was virtually unheard of before the later 19th century. As far as I know, the early church fathers do not refer to a heavenly prayer language... and in fact, many of their writings indicate that tongues seemed to virtually fade out with the Apostles.

Who has had more influence in the 20th century when it comes to the Gospel? Billy Graham, right? Now, I dont agree with every aspect of his ministry (his association w/ the Catholic Church), but he is no doubt a man of God. God has used him more than anyone else, in my estimation, to reach the world with the Gospel. Yet... Billy Graham has never once spoken in tongues.

Now, either what I believe about tongues is true... that not all speak in tongues... or Billy Graham has been disobedient to God... or Billy Graham has not the Holy Spirit.

Case closed.

Krispy

 2007/4/12 16:32
PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Krispy

Quote:
All I have to say about that is you better get saved then... because without the Holy Spirit in your life it is impossible to be saved. I contend that you are saved (because you confess here that you are)... and that you do in fact have the Holy Spirit. You have been deceived into thinking you dont, so you're seeking something that you already have.



To distill this issue into one question :-

Were the men that Philip preached to and baptized in the name of Jesus in Acts 8 saved before John and Peter arrived to pray for the infilling of the Holy Ghost?

PassingThru

 2007/4/12 19:35Profile
PassingThru
Member



Joined: 2005/5/7
Posts: 175


 Re:

Krispy

I found the account of Smith Wigglesworth baptism in the Holy Ghost here on SermonIndex :-

[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=255]The Bible Evidence of the Baptism of the Spirit[/url]


Some excerpts :-

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You know, beloved, it had to be something on the line of solid facts to move me. I was as certain as possible that I had received the Holy Ghost, and was absolutely rigid in this conviction. When this Pentecostal outpouring began in England I went to Sunderland and met with the people who had assembled for the purpose of receiving the Holy Ghost. I was continually in those meetings causing disturbances until the people wished I had never come. They said that I was disturbing the whole conditions. But I was hungry and thirsty for God, and had gone to Sunderland because I heard that God was pouring out His Spirit in a new way. I heard that God had now visited His people, had manifested His power and that people were speaking in tongues as on the day of Pentecost.

When I got to this place I said, "I cannot understand this meeting. I have left a meeting in Bradford all on fire for God. The fire fell last night and we were all laid out under the power of God. I have come here for tongues, and I don't hear them-I don't hear anything."

"Oh!" they said, "when you get baptized with the Holy Ghost you will speak in tongues." "Oh, is that it?" said I, "when the presence of God came upon me, my tongue was loosened, and really I felt as I went in the open air to preach that I had a new tongue." "Ah no," they said, "that is not it." "What is it, then?" I asked. They said, "When you get baptized in the Holy Ghost-" "I am baptized," I interjected, "and there is no one here who can persuade me that I am not baptized." So I was up against them arid they were up against me.

...

As the days passed I became more and more hungry. I had opposed the meetings so much, but the Lord was gracious, and I shall ever remember that last day-the day I was to leave. God was with me so much that last night. They were to have a meeting and I went, but I could not rest. I went to the Vicarage, and there in the library I said to Mrs. Boddy, "I cannot rest any longer, I must have these tongues." She replied, "Brother Wigglesworth, it is not the tongues you need but the Baptism. If you will allow God to baptize you, the other will be all right." "My dear sister, I know I am baptized," I said. "You know that I have to leave here at 4 o'clock. Please lay hands on me that I may receive the tongues."

...

What had I received? I had received the Bible evidence. This Bible evidence is wonderful to me. I knew I had received the very evidence of the Spirit's incoming that the Apostles received on the day of Pentecost. I knew that everything I had had up to that time was in the nature of an anointing bringing me in line with God in preparation, but now I knew I had the Biblical Baptism in the Spirit. It had the backing of the Scriptures. You are always right when you have the backing of the Scriptures and you are never right if you have not a foundation for your testimony in the Word of God.
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PassingThru

 2007/4/12 19:54Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 Re: Actually

The doctrine or teaching on tongues of men and angels dates back to Paul and resurfaces from time to time through out church history, especially amoung factions within the early churches in monastaries, seculuded mountain hide aways where monks sought God and strived to live seperated and holy life,400ad, 800 ad, 1200 ad,etc... through out history there has been what Tozer called that "Mystical" element with in the church, Tozer labeled them mystics. I think that term has come to mean something entirely different these days, now days it means something more on the lines of occultism. But that said, Paul's entire arguement in that chapter is one for the pre-emenience(sp?) of love over giftings. Since he doesn't use extremes the rest of the way through his discourse (as is his habit when pointing out an extreme-"should we sin that grace may abound, God forbid"), his statement can be taken literally as accurate and reliable. However he is showing us a more excellant way, love. The chapters in Cor. are really designed to instruct the church on the proper uses of the giftings and at the same time to bring a sense of reproof for thier misuse. Look at Samson, it would seem that God for His own reasons allows mankind to misuse the things of God, that knowledge has always troubled me.
Now on a personal note to Krispy, Brother you can't offend me or dispute me, I've enjoyed to many of your posts and I kinda like that you stand on your own convictions, God has called Krispy to be Krispy, He has not called you to be dohzman, thank God! :-) !! So I supose we can still disagree and yet hold on to a more excellant way (love) right?


_________________
D.Miller

 2007/4/12 20:42Profile









 Re:

Quote:
I would like to point out one thing concerning tongues of "men and angels"... Paul was using an extreme example when he said this

So when Paul writing this under the inspiration of the holy Ghost, the holy Ghost was exaggerating?

I believe the word when it says, "they shall speak with NEW tongues".

On the DAY of Pentecost, it was necessary for the holy Ghost to speak in several different languages, because there were devout Jews that were come from every nation under heaven. Those Jews weren't standing around saying to themselves, "these men are not properly speaking in tongues, they should let one speak and another interpret." There was a mass interpretation going on here, the tongues of Angels was in operation, others were interpreting it into a known dialect, while others spoke directly in a known dialect by the Spirit.

Acts 2:13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.

We have the same reaction today when a 'Christian' who doesn't believe in speaking in tongues comes into a meeting of Pentecostals, "that bunch is crazy". No different in the early Church, men heaped to themselves teachers having itching ears, trying to mute the holy Ghost from speaking.

It takes faith to operate in the gifts of the Spirit.

I remember in a revival service some years back when a message was given in tongues (angelic), the minister said, "I don't have the interpretation, but God is moving on someone right now, that has never given an interpretation". A brother that I have known for many years was standing there with his wife and he like a little child timid and shy started to hesitantly speak out words that were coming to him by the Spirit of God, it takes faith, but he managed to get out the message.

I remember years ago, I was praying and fasting and seeking Gods face. My intention was to know His ways and a couple of spiritual things. I was expecting for God to speak to me, and He had spoken to me during the fast. But He also spoke to me thru an angelic tongue and an interpretation granting me the things that I have sought. I told no one, yet God chose that avenue.

And your saying that Paul was using "extreme examples"?

I ask this question, is the speaking in an unknown tongue today, of God or man?

There is only two answers,1.Of God: means that it comes from the holy Spirit. 2.Of man: means that it comes from the devil, for Jesus said, "You (man) are of your father the devil" and deception and trickery is his game.

 2007/4/16 10:11





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