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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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saltlicker20
Member



Joined: 2005/11/11
Posts: 57
Grand Saline, TX

 Are we born into sin?

More than likely this topic has already been discussed, but I would extremely appreciate any wisdom on this topic: Are we born into sin or are we born into weakness?

I come from a Baptist background and have been taught that we are born into sin. However, recently my friends have been reading a book ("The God They Never Knew" - George Otis Jr.) that suggests we are born into weakness and then choose to sin against God.

In all honesty, I am confused. I've never viewed this as a questionable truth or doctrine until now and can see strengths and faults in both presented cases...so through much prayer, I come here - what have some of you come to believe and WHY do you stand on that foundation?


-DO
I Pet 4:2


_________________
DO

 2007/4/5 12:07Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re: Are we born into sin?

My view is that man is a slave to sin until he is set free to become a slave to righteousness. Man may and will make decisions that he believes are from his "free will", but are bound or enslaved to the desires of his heart as Christ said, "out of the heart proceed adulteries, murders, etc.", and also "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."

Man truly had free will once, and chose to give in to Satan's tempting to sin, thus in Adam all have sinned. The fruit of that is death. But the last Adam, Christ has come to give life to the dead!!!!
:-D


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/4/5 13:06Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re: Are we born into sin?

Romans 5:12 is the clearest indication that we are born into more than just weakness.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

Adam was created in a state of innocence. We know this because of Genesis 2:25, "And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed." In Genesis 2:16-17 we read, "And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree, this was sinful because it was disobedience. Genesis 3:6-7 says, "So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths."

Notice that their "eyes were opened and they knew they were naked". God had told them that they would die and they did die that moment. It was not a physical death but it was a spiritual death. It was at that moment that they went from a state of spiritual innocence to a state of spiritual death.

What was God's response? God killed an animal (First time anything had ever died) and used the skin to cover their shame. Genesis 3:21, "And the LORD God made for Adam and for his wife garments of skins and clothed them."

The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.
Back to Romans 5:12, "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"

We are born with more than weakness, we are born with a sinful nature. The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin. If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.

Praise be to the Lord Jesus, who was born of a woman but the Son of God who redeemed us from our sin. Genesis 3 is a shadow of what Christ would do in that He was sacrificed to cover our shame.

 2007/4/5 13:51Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: Are we born into sin?

This verse verifies that we were born into sin:

Psalms 51:5 (NAS)
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

Quote:
we are born into weakness and then choose to sin against God



This is a dangerous theology, and here is why: Many people view victory over sin as God giving us power. We choose to sin against God because we are weak. Then, Jesus saves us and gives us the power to conquer sin. This is not only a false doctrine, it denies completely the true theology of Christ. God doesn't give us power, God is the power. There is a difference that many mistake.

In Luke 18:19 (NAS), it says, " And Jesus said to him, 'Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.' Obviously, Jesus was trying to call the person unto belief. Would this person believe that Jesus was indeed God who is good?

However, in addition to this, we also see a truth we need to take to heart. The truth is this: "Only God is good." This means that humanity is not good. No where in the bible does it ever say humanity is good. We are not good. Paul confirms this by establishing that we are all sinners. Job also confirms this by saying:

Job 15:14 (NAS)
"What is man, that he could be pure, or one born of woman, that he could be righteous?"

We are not God. We cannot be righteous. No matter how hard we try or no matter how many good works we perform, we cannot be good. In essence, what this means is that no matter how hard we try, we cannot be good (God). We are not God and we cannot be God. However, Jesus is God and He can be God.

When Christ saves us, He gives us victory over sin by becoming our righteousness. He doesn't give us the power to have victory, He is the power over sin. This is extremely important to understand or else a person will be lead astray. We will think we have power when we have none.

Instead, Jesus clearly established that He is the one and only son of God, the only one who can please the Father, and the only one who can be good. This means that if we are to be righteous or good, the source of our being, the source of all we do, must come from Jesus Christ. In John 15:1-5, Jesus speaks concerning this. He says, "Apart from me you can do nothing." This doesn't mean we can't act apart from Jesus. Surely, we can sin. However, what this means is that nothing we do has any value or worth unless it is sourced from Jesus. He is the vine, we are the branches. We must remain in Him. When Jesus is the source of our actions, then our actions are good. However, when something other than Jesus is the source of actions (or doings), we have sinned. We have done nothing.

When a person is born, a person is born in a state of separation from God. If we are separated from Jesus, then can we produce good fruit? Can we be righteous? No, we cannot. Instead, we are born into sin. From our conception, we are sinful. We do not know God. Everlasting life means that we know God. (John 17:3) To know God is to be united as one with Him. (John 14:20)

This is significantly different. What this means is that by no power of our own can we become righteous or made clean. By no power or ability of our own can we know God. We must petition Jesus Christ for salvation, and ask Him to save us. We must place our faith in Him that He will do what we cannot. He must be the one working in us to make us righteous and give us victory over sin. When it is Christ working in us, then we are truly saved because our salvation and faith is dependent upon Him and nothing of our own. It is a work of God and not a work of man.

Philippians 1:6 (NAS)
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

I hope this helps,

In love,
Blake

PS....I wanted to post Psalms 51:1-13 as it is a beautiful verse. King David who was filled with the Holy Spirit cried this out to God.

PSALMS 51:1-13 (NAS)

Be gracious to me, O God, according to Your lovingkindness; According to the greatness of Your compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity And cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, And my sin is ever before me. Against You, You only, I have sinned And done what is evil in Your sight, So that You are justified when You speak And blameless when You judge. Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me. Behold, You desire truth in the innermost being, And in the hidden part You will make me know wisdom.

Purify me with hyssop, and I shall be clean; Wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow. Make me to hear joy and gladness, Let the bones which You have broken rejoice. Hide Your face from my sins And blot out all my iniquities. Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of Your salvation And sustain me with a willing spirit. {Then} I will teach transgressors Your ways, And sinners will be converted to You.


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/4/5 15:40Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
My view is that man is a slave to sin until he is set free to become a slave to righteousness. Man may and will make decisions that he believes are from his "free will", but are bound or enslaved to the desires of his heart as Christ said, "out of the heart proceed adulteries, murders, etc.", and also "out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks."


Anem!
The inclination of our will effects vidual choices that we make. The choice that you make will naturally follow your inclination. Consequently, if you love yourself or the world more than the one commanding you, you cannot consistently do things that please the commander. Your decisions are in bondage to your effections and inclinations so that you only do what you have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

Quote:
roaringlamb wrote:
Man truly had free will once, and chose to give in to Satan's tempting to sin, thus in Adam all have sinned. The fruit of that is death. But the last Adam, Christ has come to give life to the dead!!!!


Nothing gets me ercked like misquoting the Scriptures!
It is not "in Adam all have sinned"
It is "as in Adam all [b]die," 1Corinth 15:22[/b]

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
Romans 5:12 is the clearest indication that we are born into more than just weakness.

"Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned"


Death came through to us by adams sin. because, like Adam, all sin.

Don't make it say that all sinned in Adam.

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
The moment Adam ate of the fruit of the tree, his nature changed and also the nature of all who would be born from him.


If you mean that his nature chaned in that he died spiriualy, that is true.
However, God killed an animal, why?
to repair the relationship so that he be not spiritualy dead anymore. Therefore his nature was changed back to as before.

Never the less, that kind of nature can not be inherited or passed down from generation to generation because no one is guilty for another mans sin. In return, one can not be born with the judgment of anothers sin, even Adam's.

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
We are born with more than weakness, we are born with a sinful nature.


It is the fact that we are born in weakness: [b]1Corinth 15:43[/b] [color=990000]it is sown [b]in weakness[/b]; it is raised in power:[/color]

Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
The fact that every single person born from Adam has sinned proves that it is impossible to refrain from sin. If it was a mere weakness, then someone would have been able to live without sin.


It is only imposible to refrain from sin because they do not know God in the way john 17:3 sais.

Furthermore, how could someone be able to live without sin if in weakness?
God created man in weakness so that man would relye on HIM.
[b]Ecc 7:29[/b] [color=990000]Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.[/color]
God does not create babies sinful, but only ignorant(weak).

 2007/4/5 15:51Profile
totallyHis
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 16
Southern Manitoba, Canada

 Re: Are we born into sin?

This may answer your question. It is the answer the Lord gave me and is the second chapter in a book I wrote. Sorry about the length. It is actually one of the shorter of 26 chapters. Let me know if this sheds any light for you.

"HOW IT ALL BEGAN – MAN’S CHOICE

Flesh and, therefore, the need for Jesus’ death had their origin in the Garden of Eden.

The story of Adam and Eve is quite familiar to the majority of folks, but what we must understand is WHY God created man. Because He desires to be worshipped in Spirit and in Truth, God made man with the capability for worship.

The Bible says man was created in the image of God; 1 formed from the dust of the earth, and made alive by the breath of God. 2 The form was lifeless, until God breathed life (spirit) into him. Because man was made from dust, he will return to dust after he dies. David said, “You take away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.” (Psalm 104:29b Amplified)

According to the Hebrew dictionary, “image” means “phantom.” Or one could say, “spirit,” 3 which would mean that man was a spiritual being. Although he was flesh and blood, he was capable of communicating with his Creator. There was no consciousness of man’s humanity because, as the Word says, Adam and Eve were naked (nude) and “were not ashamed.” 4 There was nothing to separate man from his Creator. They could walk and talk in pure communion, Spirit to spirit.

Just think what it must have been like in the Garden of Eden, when God communed with man, His creation. The peace and serenity must have been beyond anything our finite minds can comprehend. There would be no such thing as the hustle and bustle we have now in this twenty-first century. The fragrant flowers, the fresh green foliage, the carpet-like grass, and the exhilarating, oxygen-rich air must have been beyond description! Imagine the beautiful birds of every kind, in chorus with their unique sounds. It must have sounded like a symphony! Can you picture a beautiful, stately doe grazing in the woods, as she listens to the music of the birds? And imagine the spotless, woolly sheep wandering in the meadows, without fear of danger. Everything in the Garden was perfect.

Two trees

Of all the trees in the Garden of Eden, the two mentioned are the Tree of Life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. 5 Why these two trees in particular? What is the significance? I believe we can see them as opposites, with the fruit of one giving Life and the fruit of the other resulting in death.

As is commonly known, God told man if he were to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would “surely die.” 6 God gave them the choice of life or death, and they chose death, because the serpent tricked Eve. That old serpent, the Devil, told her they would not die, but would “be as God, knowing good and evil.” 7 They ate the fruit and, just as the serpent had said, their eyes were opened. But what did they see? They did not see they were nude, as before, and “were not ashamed.” This time they saw they were “cunning,” as the Hebrew word for this “nakedness” shows. 8 Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh, with self-awareness due to the knowledge of good and evil. And the man and woman tried to hide their nakedness with fig leaves. 9 God knew they had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and He found them attempting to hide their flesh.

The LORD God clothed Adam and Eve with coats of skins. 10 But in putting to death the animals from which the skins were taken, there had to be bloodshed. Remember, the meaning of “blood” is “that which when shed causes death.” 11 Now we see how Jesus would one day shed His blood to provide a robe of righteousness for man. Even before the foundation of the world, God knew man would make the wrong choice.

With man’s new-found knowledge came the awareness that he could be his own god. And now being like God, knowing good and evil, the LORD God had to put him out of the Garden of Eden “lest he put forth his hand, and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live for ever.” 12

Had man taken and eaten of the Tree of Life in his fallen condition, and lived eternally, God would have lost forever His creation who was made to worship Him. Man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator, but God’s redemptive plan begins to unfold! He would one day reconcile man to Himself as we see in Romans 8:3-4: 'God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'

Was it Adam’s act of disobedience that made all mankind sinful? Or was it the result of his disobedience? If simple disobedience was the problem, the tree with the forbidden fruit could have been a cherry tree or a fig tree. But no, it was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The fruit of the tree caused the problem: not merely the eating of it. Yes, man ate the fruit in disobedience, but the fruit itself provided the source of trouble for all mankind from that moment on. Man’s heredity was now to be born a mere man of flesh, both literally as well as figuratively. That is the reason Jesus said to Nicodemus, 'That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.' (John 3:6-7)

Another word for flesh is “self,” and when man’s eyes were opened he discovered his self-awareness, with its accompanying self-sufficiency. Rather than rely on God, man now relied on his knowledge of good and evil.

Mortality

This new knowledge became the guiding force in man’s life, and his condition changed to one of mortality – subject to death. As Paul said in Romans 5:14, 'Death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the likeness of Adam’s transgression, who is a figure of him that was to come.' Death reigned because man was flesh, and flesh ultimately will die.

The word “adam” means “man.” 13 However, “man” is also translated from a second Hebrew word meaning “mortal,” 14 and is derived from another word that means “to be frail, feeble.” 15 A whole book could be written to show the difference in the uses of “man [adam, mankind]” and “man [mortal]” throughout the Old Testament. But for now, I shall quote only the first verse where “man [mortal]” occurs. 'And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enos [mortal] 16: then began men [mortals] to call upon the name of the LORD.' (Genesis 4:26) In acknowledgement of man’s fallen condition, Seth named his son “Mortal.”


A flesh heredity

Adam did not pass on to man the sin heredity because he sinned. He passed on a
flesh heredity that came with the knowledge of good and evil. All that which flesh produces is sin, whether it is good or evil. This can be seen in Leviticus 5:4 (Amplified): 'Or if anyone unthinkingly swears he will do something, whether to do evil or good, whatever it may be that a man shall pronounce rashly taking an oath, then, when he becomes aware of it, he shall be guilty in either of these.' This verse in the Law reveals to us that man was guilty of sin whether he chose “to do evil or good.” The determination “to do” was the problem.

Satan had “fathered” flesh when he planted in man the seed of a thought, “to be as God, knowing good and evil.” 17 The devil knew that with the knowledge of good and evil, man would be in his domain. His own original sin was exaltation of self, which caused him to be thrust down from the position he once held. He wanted to be God, 18 but he became only the god of this world and the realm of flesh. In the end, the God of all gods will triumph over ALL flesh!

The serpent had deceived man into exalting himself through the knowledge of good and evil, which was his God-likeness. But God chose to humble Himself and come in the “likeness of sinful flesh,” to put to death the flesh that had come between man and Himself. In crucifying flesh then being buried and raised to life by the Spirit, Jesus made a way for man to receive the knowledge of the Truth. God’s response to man’s God-likeness was for Himself to come in the form of man-likeness.

Only God Almighty, Creator of all things, can Father the new creature by planting His own Seed, His Spirit, in all who will come to the end of self and receive His Son Who is LIFE. God was not known as “Father” until Jesus came, and He is Father only to those born again – or “born from above,” which is the true meaning of the Greek word. Only the truly born-again believer can be called a “new creature in Christ Jesus.”

If sin were a deed, this verse would make no sense: 'Him who knew no sin he made to be sin on our behalf; that we might become the righteousness of God in him.' (2 Corinthians 5:21) Paul was referring to the fact that Jesus was made flesh so that He could destroy the heredity of flesh, thus making a way for man to become the righteousness of God in Christ.

Jesus said, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6)

Man did not merely have a sin nature; the sin nature was the manifestation of what he had become – a creature of flesh. Man’s fleshly heredity is the root of his sin nature. Deeds spring from heredity. Therefore man’s heredity must be altered, and only God can alter heredity through the new birth.

I grew up believing that just because Adam sinned, it would make sinners of all those born after him. I thought, “How can that be? It has to be more profound!” The Lord showed me that it is indeed much more profound. That which transpired because of Adam’s deed produced the root of all trouble. This root, deep within the heart and soul of mankind, brought such depravity that Jesus had to die in order for the root to be removed.

We must not trivialize the Cross of Jesus Christ. He came because of man’s heredity of flesh, and the death which most certainly results. After all, our flesh is mortal, which means “that must eventually die.” 19 When Jesus spoke to Nicodemus, He made very clear the difference between flesh and spirit, saying, “That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.” (John 3:6)

In the whitewashing of the truth, we have overlooked the absolute need to be born again, not merely forgiven. If a mere deed was the problem with Adam eating the fruit of a wrong tree, God could simply have forgiven him, and all of Adam and Eve’s offspring would have had to avoid eating that same fruit in order to obey God’s command. His command also included the fact that man would die if he ate the fruit – not that the fruit would kill him or that God would kill him, but that the knowledge of good and evil would reduce man to a creature of mortal flesh. And from that point on, all offspring would be born in this man-likeness.

1. Genesis 1:27
2. Genesis 2:7
3. Hebrew #6754
4. Genesis 2:25
5. Genesis 2:9
6. Genesis 2:17
7. Genesis 3:5
8. Hebrew #5903 from #6191
9. Genesis 3:7
10. Genesis 3:21
11. Hebrew #1818
12. Genesis 3:22-23
13. Hebrew #120
14. Hebrew #582
15. Hebrew #605
16. Hebrew #583
17. Genesis 3:4-5
18. Isaiah 14:12-15

In Jesus because of Calvary,


_________________
Stella Paterson

 2007/4/5 16:15Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
However, God killed an animal, why?
to repair the relationship so that he be not spiritualy dead anymore. Therefore his nature was changed back to as before.



This is not scriptural. The sacrifice of animals cannot change a person's nature. Only by the blood of Christ can a person be regenerated.

The sacrifice of an animal was a symbol and a type, it points to Christ but does not accomplish the same thing. Hebrews 9 makes this clear.

Quote:
Never the less, that kind of nature can not be inherited or passed down from generation to generation because no one is guilty for another mans sin.



I am not saying that we are judged by Adam's sin, but that Adam's sin caused us to be born into sin. This is the reason why all sin.

 2007/4/5 16:31Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Many people view victory over sin as God giving us power. We choose to sin against God because we are weak. Then, Jesus saves us and gives us the power to conquer sin. This is not only a false doctrine, it denies completely the true theology of Christ. God doesn't give us power, God is the power. There is a difference that many mistake.



This is a very good point and it reminded me of something that Watchman Nee wrote in his book [i]The Normal Christian Life[/i]...
For God’s way of deliverance is altogether different from man’s way. Man’s way is to try to suppress sin by seeking to overcome it; God’s way is to remove the sinner. Many Christians mourn over their weakness, thinking that if only they were stronger all would be well. The idea that, because failure to lead a holy life is due to our impotence, something more is therefore demanded of us, leads naturally to this false conception of the way of deliverance. If we are preoccupied with the power of sin and with our inability to meet it, then we naturally conclude that to gain the victory over sin we must have more power. ‘If only I were stronger’, we say, ‘I could overcome my violent outbursts of temper’, and so we plead with the Lord to strengthen us that we may exercise more self-control.

But this is altogether wrong; this is not Christianity. God’s means of delivering us from sin is not by making us stronger and stronger, but by making us weaker and weaker. That is surely rather a peculiar way of victory, you say; but it is the Divine way. God sets us free from the dominion of sin, not by strengthening our old man but by crucifying him; not by helping him to do anything but by removing him from the scene of action.
In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2007/4/5 16:33Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

JaySaved wrote:

Quote:
However, God killed an animal, why?
to repair the relationship so that he be not spiritualy dead anymore. Therefore his nature was changed back to as before.

This is not scriptural. The sacrifice of animals cannot change a person's nature. Only by the blood of Christ can a person be regenerated.

If sin can change the nature of Adam, then it follows that the sacrifice of animals which atone for sin, can change back the nature.[url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%204:26%20;&version=31;]Leviticus 4:26 [/url], [url=http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Lev%204:35;&version=31;]:35[/url]


Quote:
JaySaved wrote:
I am not saying that we are judged by Adam's sin, but that Adam's sin caused us to be born into sin. This is the reason why all sin.


We are not born into sin but into death and it is because of that death we sin
[b]Romans 7:24[/b] [color=990000]O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?[/color]

[b]Romans 8:6 [color=990000] the mind-set of the flesh is death,[/b] but the mind-set of the Spirit is life and peace.[/color]
The mind of the fleash is not sin.

We did not inherit Adam's sin or sin nature, but his death:
[b]Romans 8:20[/b] [color=990000]For the creature was made subject to vanity[/color](temporaryness) and [b]Romans 8:21[/b] [color=990000]the bondage of corruption[/color]
This is talking about the death that God cursed Adam with. [color=990000]and so death passed upon all men,[/color][b][b]Romans 5:12[/b]

 2007/4/5 17:41Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Logic,

Quote:
If sin can change the nature of Adam, then it follows that the sacrifice of animals which atone for sin, can change back the nature.



What did Jesus mean in John 3:5 where He said that a person must be born again?

What JaySaved is trying to establish is that when God created humanity, He had a specific purpose. When Adam sinned, not only did Adam defy that purpose, he also became a creature entirely different than what God had purposed. Adam changed. That is why God asked, "Where are you?" God surely knew where Adam was. The point of this is to establish that God no longer recognized the creature He had created. Adam had changed.

This means that everyone who was born from Adam bore this same problem. Sin is like a disease that infested the human race. Jesus was the only person born without the disease.

God gave us the law to prove that we had this disease. Part of the disease is to think that we don't have it. We think, "I am not sinful." However, the law showed us our sin. When we see our sin, then we are faced with a choice. Do we repent or not? Do we seek to be saved, or die in our sins?

This truth is significant. This means that when we are born, we all are born in a state of separation from God. We are absent and void of God. This is essential for understanding the need to be born again. It is not enough to simply have our sins forgiven. We need to experience a complete change of being. We need to be experience a new birth that changes us spiritually, and later physically as well.

When we say that a person is born into sin, it literally means that we are born into this state of separation where it is impossible for a person to please God. No amount of good works or actions could change the person, neither could a sacrifice of animals. It takes the power of God to change us.

This is a most essential doctrine that must be understood. It is not by our power that we are saved or made new. It is not simply by forgiveness either. We need to experience a death and resurrection. Only when we have experienced this transformation do we come under the rule of Christ. Only then are we one of His people. Only then do we "know" God as Jesus proclaimed in John 17:3.

This is also essential in understanding John 15:1-5. Only Jesus is pleasing to the Father. Only Jesus can produce good fruit. Thus, if any person is going to produce good fruit, Jesus must be the source. He is the vine, and we are the branches. Only when this is true, when we remain in Him, can we produce good fruit.

I pray that you might understand this truth. Many people are held in bondage because they do not know Christ as the source of their being.

I say this in love and will not say anything more. I do not like to debate.

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/4/5 20:24Profile





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