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Ekklesia1
Member



Joined: 2006/12/10
Posts: 14


 Re:

Ive never tithed in my life and God has given me my every hearts desire. I do give as He leads me to give and I do believe in supporting the ministry that brings the word of the Lord to us, just as Paul taught that those that preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

But until churches stop wasting Gods money on frivolous things Ill give the money He loans me in this lifetime to make sure a widow or orphan is fed directly.
if Im wrong, Ill answer to Him then...but theres no way Im putting money in to buy pretty new carpeting in some building destined to burn.
The church started in homes and public places and thats where she belongs. Not hold up in some multimillion dollar facility that shadows many military installations.

 2007/3/31 18:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Compliments wrote:
Jeanette said:
Quote:
Um, no... I dare not use God as a cosmic banker.

I agree!!


Actually I didn't say that, but I agree too!!! ;-)

 2007/3/31 18:51
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 2227


 Re:

Hi,
Without going too deep into it I cant help thinking that their is a direct problem with teaching that God wont bless you if you don't give ten percent and Grace(favour).We are saying on one hand that we are saved by grace but that doesnt extend to our finances.We are also limiting God in his dealing with his children.God cant bless his children unless they pay up first!I dont think so,
Rgds staff

 2007/3/31 19:50Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: The Tithe - A shadow of things to come...

Quote:

Stampe wrote:


Speaking of the early church, there is a great paradox concerning tithing. The tithe was 10 percent of the produce of your land and your livestock, but in the book of Acts we discover that the believers sold their land and their possessions and brought the money to the apostles, so that it might be distributed to those who had the need. If the believers sold their land, from which crop where
they to tithe from?

Historically it is also a fact that we do not hear about tithing in the church until around the Nicene period (325 AD).

When all this is said, I will also say this: I believe that generous and sacrificial giving is part of the Christian walk, and there is no two ways about that. A true believer will be moved to give to God's
work and to those who are in need, however, I find it very inconsistent with God's character, to demand from the poor rather than to support them, and too often this is how tithing is practised in our churches... :-( ...in fact, our system of tithing has litte or no relationship at all with the tithe of the scriptures!!!

Be blessed,

Stampe




Bravo on that great insight regarding the first seed being sown was a first born son, and what it was a shadow of.

I too had wondered about the early church, and how they held everything in common. Actually, it was voluntary.

[color=993300]Acts 5:1. But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,
2. And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.
3. But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?
4. Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.[/color]

It was their lie that they were giving all, when they were not that was the problem.



The insight given to me on this question from the Holy Spirit was that since most Christ followers were kicked out of their family group, the new church in Jerusalem was their new family, and as in any tribal society, they felt the need for James and the other Apostles and Elders that stayed in Jerusalem to keep order, and handle the finances, so that their poor, no longer eligible for help from the temple, would be taken care of.

Being a Christ follower was less difficult in the smaller towns, and with the persecution, soon went underground everywhere, but Christians always went to other Christians until the Roman Empire took over the religion for it's own purposes.

Since Jesus was the fulfillment of Judaism, not the start of a new religion, I venture to say that many Christ followers were also good Jews, going to the Synagogue, and paying their tithes to whom they saw fit, even as we should do.

As for eating their tithes, the way the Jews calculated it, there were three tithes. The first tenth was on what you inherited, if anything, the second tithe was on your increase over and above the income from your original inheritance. These two tithes were actually covering all the income one had, and was paid to the Levites, and besides their support, they were supposed to take care of the poor, the sick, the widows and orphans, and keep up the Temple and Synagogues.

The third tithe (Actually the second in reality) was to cover the feast offerings, where you ate your sacrifices. Your sin offerings and thank offerings were above those.

The technical stuff about the tithes is from non-Biblical Rabbinical writings that I do not have sources on, but was a commentary on how the tithes were calculated and used until 70AD.


However, just from reading the New Testament, one gets a pretty good picture that the Levites were not concerned with anyone but themselves, since there were beggars everywhere, and widows and orphans gleaning the fields.

Since we don't keep the feasts, I think we should tithe and give offerings, but frankly, you just have to start out with $10.00 here and $20.00 there, until you no longer feel the Holy Spirit nudging you to give more.

What I have to give, I'll give where it does the most good. From Jesus' viewpoint, that was:

[color=993300]Matthew 25:31. When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32. And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33. And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35. For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36. Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38. When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39. Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40. And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.[/color]

Whether it is 1% of your income or 10% of your income, if you give this way, and in gladness at being able to help, you will be blessed, both now, and in heaven.

But since I'm over 10%, I'll keep listening to the Holy Spirit, and when He says give here also, I'll obey. Besides, have I not tested Him in this, and not found Him wanting?

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/2 5:29Profile
bluinos
Member



Joined: 2005/2/4
Posts: 78


 Re:

Quote:
But until churches stop wasting Gods money on frivolous things Ill give the money He loans me in this lifetime to make sure a widow or orphan is fed directly.



Quote:
if Im wrong, Ill answer to Him then...but theres no way Im putting money in to buy pretty new carpeting in some building destined to burn.



Quote:
The church started in homes and public places and thats where she belongs. Not hold up in some multimillion dollar facility that shadows many military installations.




“I brought a friend with me to work who is vastly influential in this topic and
I would like to address this, if that’s ok?”


Let me first introduce you to my friend Haggai. I’ve known her for approximately 12 years, and have grown to value her heart. She lives her life giving to God always giving to God and never expecting anything in return, not many people understand her for she has a strong character she looks timid until you get to know her and once you do she will talk her little heart out and is so much fun to be around with, as long as you maintain certain boundaries. I ask her once why the boundaries and this is what she said….

“The word BOUNDARY means a border and perimeter if you will” There is a line that I do not allow anyone to cross, once they have crossed that line it’s over”

I said to Haggai, Haggai don’t you think that this would give people a bad perception of who you really are, why not let them get to know you, to know your heart. What are you afraid of? She changed the conversation and proceeded to teach me something about her past, something that she thought I didn’t know, so I just listened as I often do. I came to the conclusion that in order to know the present and the future you first know the past.

Haggai had written a novel, I like to call it a novel though it sounds harsh. I call it a novel because I was there when she was writing it and I lived what she lived, I cried when she cried, and was filled with so much hope and faith.

THIS IS HOW THE STORY GOES AND TO SOME YOU MIGHT REMEMBER IT.

Then Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, Jeshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the whole remnant of God’s people obeyed the message from the Lord their God. It had been delivered by the prophet Haggai, whom the Lord their God had sent, and the people worshiped the Lord in earnest. Then Haggai, the Lord’s messenger, gave the people this message from the Lord: “I am with you, says the Lord!” So the Lord sparked the enthusiasm of Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, Jeshua son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the whole remnant of God’s people. They came and began their work on the house of the Lord Almighty, their God. This was on September 21* of the second year of King Darius’s regin.

On December 18* of the second year of King Darius’s regin, the Lord sent this message to the prophet Haggai: “This is what the Lord Almighty says! Ask the priest this question about the law: If one of you is carrying a holy sacrifice in his robes and happens to brush against some bread or stew, wine or oil, or any other kind of food, will it also become holy?”

The Priest replied, “NO”.

Then Haggai asked, “But if someone becomes ceremonially unclean by touching a dead person and then brushes against any of the things mentioned, will it be defiled?”

And the priests answered, “YES”.

Then Haggai said, “That is how it is with this people and this nation, says the LORD. Everything they do and everything they offer is defiled. So think about this from now
On—consider how things were going for you before you began to lay the foundation of the LORD’S Temple. When you hoped for a twenty-bushel crop, you harvested only ten. When you expected to draw fifty gallons from the winepress, you found only twenty. I sent blight and mildew and hail to destroy all the produce of your labor. Yet, even so, you refused to return to me, says the Lord.

“On this eighteenth day of December the day when the foundation of the Lord’s Temple was laid—carefully consider this: I am giving you a promise now while the seed is still in the barn, before you have harvested your grain and before the grapevine, the figtree, the pomegranate, and the olive tree have produced their corps. From this day onward I will bless you.”

The Lord sent this second message to Haggai on December 18. “Tell Zerubbabel, the governor of Judah, that I am about to shake the heavens and the earth. I will overthrow royal thrones, destroying the power of foreign kingdoms. I will overturn their chariots and charioteers. The horses will fall, and their riders will kill each other. But when this happens, says the Lord Almighty, I will honor you, Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, my servant. I will treat you like a signet ring on my finger, says the LORD, for I have especially chosen you. I, the LORD ALMIGHTY, have spoken!”

On August 29* of the second year of King Darius’s regin, the Lord gave a message through the prophet Haggai to Zerubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Jeshua* son of Jehozadak, the high priest.

“This is what the Lord Almighty says: The people are saying, “The time has not yet come to rebuild the Lord’s house – The Temple.”

So the Lord sent this message through the prophet Haggai: “Why are you living in luxurious houses while my house lies in ruins? This is what the Lord Almighty says: Consider how things are going for you! You have planted much but harvested little. You have food to eat, but not enough to fill you up. You have wine to drink, but not enough to satisfy your thirst. You have clothing to wear, but not enough to keep you warm. Your wages disappear as though you were putting them in pockets filled with holes!

This is what the Lord Almighty says: Consider how things are going for you! Now go up into the hills, bring down timber, and rebuild my house. Then I will take pleasure in it and be honored, says the Lord. You hoped for rich harvests, but they were poor. And when you brought your harvest home, I blew it away. Why? Because my house lies in ruins, says the Lord Almighty, while you are all busy building your own fine houses. That is why the heavens have withheld the dew and the earth has withheld it’s crops. I have called for a drought on your fields and hills—a drought to wither the grain and grapes and olives and all your other crops, a drought to starve both you and your cattle and to ruin everything you have worked so hard to get.”

HARSH WORDS I KNOW, BUT WAIT.

“Then on October 17* of that same year, the Lord sent another message through the prophet Haggai. “Say this to Zarubbabel son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and to Jeshua son of Jehozadak, the hight priest, and to the remnant of God’s people there in the land: Is there anyone who can remember this house—temple—as it was before? In comparison, how dies it look to you now? It must seem like nothing at all! But now take courage, Zerubbabel, says the LORD. Take Courage, Jeshua son of Jehozada, the high priest. Take Courage, all you people still left in the land, says the LORD. Take courgare and work, for I am with you, says the Lord Almighty. My Spirit remains among you, just
For this is what the Lord Amighty says: In just a little while I will again shake the oceans and dry land, too. I will shake all the nations, and the treasures of all the nations will come to this TEMPLE. I will fill this place with glory, says the Lord Amighty.
The Silver is mine, and the gold is mine, says the Lord Almighty. The future glory of this Temple will be greater than its past glory, says the LORD ALMIGHTY. And in this place I will bring peace. I, the LORD ALMIGHTY, have spoken!”

“The Silver is mine, and the gold is mine, says the Lord Almighty. The future glory of this Temple will be greater than its past glory, says the LORD ALMIGHTY. And in this place I will bring peace. I, the LORD ALMIGHTY, have spoken!”


Soo what did you think? Would you re-consider your statement? Chairs would be feasible and I could help you remove the plastic from each one. Soo what do you say?

You might be wondering what the title of this book is:
GOD FIRST AND EVERYTHING ELSE SECOND.

She would, kill me – if she heard that I shared this with you, so please if you ever meet her do not mention this at all.

 2007/6/8 13:22Profile
bible1985
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 354


 Re:

I was trying to find answers about tithing today and i always have felt that a tithe is giving to anybody in need or spreading the gospel through bibles or gospel tracts or whatever not just always giving money to the church or in a church. If my brother needs a bill to be paid and doesn't have the money i give it to him out of the abundance of my heart and that can be considered my tithe. Thats what i think.

 2008/11/26 19:27Profile
passerby
Member



Joined: 2008/8/13
Posts: 742


 Re:

That's the essence of my thinking too. I used to do tithing and I think there could be no problem about it as long as it is not set as stumbling block and rendered with a cheerful heart. But I wouldnt call it tithing now nor be strict as to the amount or schedule nor be legalistic with the act of giving per se.

Well, sometimes we are pressed with selfish concerns and other worries which we must repent by seeking His kingdom first, living our daily lives according to His will or purposes.

 2008/11/26 23:11Profile









 Re:

This morning my wife's father texted my wife three passages:

Quote:
1)Proverbs 3:9,10 9Honor the LORD with your wealth and with the firstfruits of all your produce; 10then your barns will be filled with plenty, and your vats will be bursting with wine.


2)Isaiah 58:13,14 13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.


3) Malachi 3:9,10 9You are cursed with a curse, for you are robbing me, the whole nation of you. 10 Bring the full tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. And thereby put me to the test, says the LORD of hosts, if I will not open the windows of heaven for you and pour down for you a blessing until there is no more need.



Seeing that I am in Korea and it has been mentioned that Koreans and other Asian countries focus a lot on the financial blessings of the Lord, I wonder what Saintly people believe about this sort of thinking.

If I were to send someone messages from the Bible, it wouldn't be about tithing...

...I have felt a little threatened in my belief because I am completely surrounded by this teaching. I wrote a month or so ago in "10%,100%, or nothing" that I will continue to tithe, but mainly because I am not confident that I have been whole hearted to God, especially regarding money, therefore, I wanted to at least have the tithe as a disciplinary measure to keep me in check.

However, I am still unsure about this decision and later this afternoon I was listening to my audio bible in the car on the way to work and heard, then subsequently read, Genesis 28:10-22 --

Quote:
10And Jacob went out from Beersheba, and went toward Haran.

11And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.

12And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

13And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;

14And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.

15And, behold, I am with thee, and will keep thee in all places whither thou goest, and will bring thee again into this land; for I will not leave thee, until I have done that which I have spoken to thee of.

16And Jacob awaked out of his sleep, and he said, Surely the LORD is in this place; and I knew it not.

17And he was afraid, and said, How dreadful is this place! this is none other but the house of God, and this is the gate of heaven.

18And Jacob rose up early in the morning, and took the stone that he had put for his pillows, and set it up for a pillar, and poured oil upon the top of it.

19And he called the name of that place Bethel: but the name of that city was called Luz at the first.

20And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on,

21So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:

22And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.



Wasn't Jacob wrong in doing and saying what he did (v.18-22)? God already blessed him (v.13-15).

I am not saying we should not give to those in need and as the Spirit directs, but 'surely giving a tenth' was not what God wanted from Jacob, nor us.

 2008/12/2 4:34
Lysa
Member



Joined: 2008/10/25
Posts: 3699
East TN for now!

 Re:

Brian,

Most of us are taught that if we don't pay now .... we will eventually pay one way or another!! That is fear tactics and Jesus isn't about fear tactic and human nature is to buck against any type of tactics to get us (me) to do anything!

I sure liked and understood what you wrote [emphasis is mine]:

Quote:
...I have felt a little threatened in my belief because I am completely surrounded by this teaching. I wrote a month or so ago in "10%,100%, or nothing" that I will continue to tithe, but mainly because I am not confident that I have been whole hearted to God, especially regarding money, therefore, I wanted to at least have the tithe as a disciplinary measure to keep me in check.



Thank you for that honesty, I appreciate it and it helped me.


_________________
Lisa

 2008/12/2 12:00Profile
boG
Member



Joined: 2008/5/21
Posts: 349
Las Vegas, NV

 Re: The Tithe - A shadow of things to come...

Let us be very simple in this faith. If you give 10% of your financial income for a tithe (not a bad thing) you will be exactly 10% poorer. Expect nothing more.

[b]Luke 6
34.[/b] "If you lend to those from whom you expect to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners in order to receive back the same amount.
[b]35.[/b] "But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return; and your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He Himself is kind to ungrateful and evil men.

Shall we then lend to God and expect Him to say something different? Ah, even the sinners lend to sinners expecting in return but because you have lent to God of your worldy substance, just what He always wanted, He shall pour out His Holy Spirit upon you and make you a prosperous nation. Oh, really? Is that why God sees to our needs? Is that why He pours out His Holy Spirit? Is your tithing so divine as to be measured against the ineffable blood of Christ; that your tithing shall send down the promised Holy Ghost? [edit: "May your silver perish with you, because you thought you could obtain the gift of God with money!" (Acts 8:20)]

[b]Matthew 25
40.[/b] "The King will answer and say to them, `Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'"

Do you require more reward than this my brothers? Seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, entrust the other stuff to Him and do not trouble yourself with tomorrow. [edit: As Martin Luther has said, there are only two days on the Christian calendar: Today and Judgment Day.]

[b]Luke 11
39.[/b] But the Lord said to him, "Now you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and of the platter; but inside of you, you are full of robbery and wickedness.
[b]40.[/b] "You foolish ones, did not He who made the outside make the inside also?
[b]41.[/b] "But give that which is within as charity, and then all things are clean for you.
[b]42.[/b] "But woe to you Pharisees! For you pay tithe of mint and rue and every kind of garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of God; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

There is a balance between giving of our worldy substance, which is of little benefit, and of our giving from the charity of the Spirit of Christ within which sanctifies the offering and the tithe.

If you give tithe or money to the church or to those in need then expect nothing in return, not even that God shall "open up the gates of heaven and pour out a double portion" financial or otherwise and not even that God shall cover your rent or mortgage either, not even for your next $1 meal from McDonalds. Expect nothing, require nothing and rejoice in giving for it is greater to give than to receive.

To be very honest if you cannot pay your rent or mortgage perhaps it is the very mercy of God that you should lose everything that binds you and enslaves you to this world system of monetary needs. I just spoke the other night to a homeless man on this very point. Every time he would get money or a place of his own he would fall right back in to drinking and end up right back on the street where he would continue his drinking addiction. He was trusting in money or shelter or food or a wife as functional saviors. We must regard,

[b]Proverbs 30
7.[/b] Two things I asked of You,
Do not refuse me before I die:
[b]8.[/b] Keep deception and lies far from me,
Give me neither poverty nor riches;
Feed me with the food that is my portion,
[b]9.[/b] That I not be full and deny You and say, "Who is the LORD ?"
Or that I not be in want and steal,
And profane the name of my God.

Why shall God give us riches if riches are the very thing that shall cause us to forget Him? Why do we even desire to have more money? So that we may give more money to those in need? Perhaps to give in part but not in sincerity. We do not intend to live like missionaries, like sojourners in a strange land, as those who live content with food and raiment. But we must have the car, the house, the tv, the movie collection, the cds, the iPod, the comfy bed, the decoration, etc. etc. ...

If you would like to see the testimony of men who gave their tithe with thanksgiving in their hearts then I would recommend you all to read [url=http://www.e316.com/Hudson-Taylor/0871239515.htm]Hudson Taylor[/url] an autobiography written by Hudson Taylor including his account of preparing for and going to China where he founded the China Inland Mission. As well, looking up a biography of George Muller and his ministry with the Orphanages in Bristol. These are men who understood what it was to give of their tithes and offerings.


_________________
Jordan

 2008/12/2 15:10Profile





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