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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God's Will and Sin

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seekinggod
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Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 God's Will and Sin

I posted a few comments here:

http://weblogs.oxegen.us/oxegen/archive/2004/03/07/819.aspx

...regarding the fact that when we abide in Christ, God's will in us will move us to obey the 10 commandments out of loving obedience. Here is what I wrote:

Quote:
We should not keep the law in hopes of gathering the affection of God, but rather keep the law because we love God.

While we are under the new covenant, Jesus stated that His 2 commandments were the essence of the 10 commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength, and love others as yourself.

If we love God, we will not commit adultery, or steal on purpose. There are many things we won't do, because we love God.

Being in Christ does not mean we are free from the laws of sin and death. Our flesh is what we are stuggling against.

Christ freed us from earning God's approval by our works, but if we love Him we will be doing His will, which includes a distate for sin and breaking the 10 commandments.



Please tell me what you think. I feel as if my position isn't very acceptable to many.


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Steve

 2004/3/19 16:23Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: God's Will and Sin

Quote:
Being in Christ does not mean we are free from the laws of sin and death. Our flesh is what we are stuggling against.



What do you make of these verses then?

[i]For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.[/i](Romans 8:2-4)

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/3/19 19:13Profile
seekinggod
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Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re:

I still struggle in the flesh. We all do. The apostle Paul did. He had struggles, for sure.

We are free in the sense that it cannot condemn us if we do not reach perfection. We are pure in the eyes of God. This does not imply there will be no further struggles in the flesh.

Once again, I come back to the fact that God's will working in us will despise sin, and assist us in our battle.

Christ is our victory.

I am not implying a works-based scenario. That is taking my post out of context.

I stated:

"Being in Christ does not mean we are free from the laws of sin and death."

We all walk in the valley of death. Our flesh is completely under the law of sin and death. Jesus would not argue with this.

Being in Christ frees us from this slaw, but that does not mean we no longer have flesh to struggle against, which brings me back to the point of my first post.

God's will working in us will aid and guide us in keeping the 10 commandments. Can we do it under our own strength?


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Steve

 2004/3/19 22:01Profile
seekinggod
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Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re: God's Will and Sin

The law ...

as used here, has troubled the commentators, especially those who were concerned with removing the concept of law from Christianity and making it a system of "faith alone." Nevertheless, Paul here used exactly the same word that previously was applied to the Mosaic institution; and this affords dogmatic proof that there are indeed rules, regulations, commandments, and ordinances connected with faith "in Christ" that are in the fullest sense of that word, "the law of God." The new system of Christianity is here called "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus"; and, although a law of liberty, deliverance, and freedom from bondage, the requirements of it may not be ignored, but must be observed. Nor is this an isolated reference to Christianity in which such terminology is discovered. Paul himself wrote of certain persons who were spoken of as "without law," that is, without Moses' law; but of the same persons, Paul said they were "under law to Christ!' (1 Corinthians 9:21). Thus, freedom from Moses' law does not mean freedom from the higher law "in Christ." All people are under obligation to obey Christ. Paul called such obligations "the law of Christ" (Galatians 6:2); James called them "the perfect law of liberty" (James 1:25), "the royal law" (James 2:8), and "the law of liberty" (James 2:12). Thus, the very gospel itself is "a law" that mortals are required to observe and obey upon pain of eternal condemnation if they neglect, refuse, or fail to do so (1 Peter 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 1:8,9). Any and all of the commandments of Jesus Christ are components of that "law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus," which Paul mentioned here. That the commandments of Jesus Christ are actually endowed with binding and legal status as the irrevocable law of God appears in the words of the Master himself, and in that very portion of the scriptures usually recognized as the very constitution of Christianity. Christ said,

Whosoever shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 5:19).
If then Christianity is, at least in part, a system of law, what about the question of legalism? Who is a legalist? A legalist is one who obeys the rules and regulations of Christianity, at least to some extent, and then falls into the error of supposing that he has thereby merited salvation, and as a result of such error develops an attitude of self-righteousness similar to that of the ancient Pharisees. Never in a million years could it be correct to define a legalist as one who shah "do and teach" the commandments of Christ, for Jesus said of such a person as that, that he "shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." The practical use of the term "legalist" today is as an epithet hurled at persons who reject the heresy of salvation by "faith only."

There are two laws in view in this verse, the law of Moses from which people have been liberated through Christ, and "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus," the latter being synonymous with what might be called the law of the gospel of Christ. There is a sharp contrast between these two laws, one being called the law of sin and death, the other being referred to as the law of the Spirit of life. Although both systems are quite properly referred to by the Holy Spirit himself as "law," the difference between them is the difference between noon and midnight. On the very first day that the law of Moses went into effect, three thousand. souls disobeyed it and were put to death (Exodus 32:28); on the very first day the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus went into effect, three thousand souls heard the word of God, believed in Christ, repented of their sins and were baptized for the remission of sins, thus being saved (Acts 2:3747). Three thousand died at the unveiling of the law of Moses; three thousand were saved at the unveiling of the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus.

Some writers make the "law of sin and death" here apply to the law Paul mentioned in Rom. 7:23; but these words apply also. if not exclusively, to the law of Moses. Barrett's paraphrase of this verse is:

For the religion that is made possible in Christ Jesus, namely, that of the life-giving Spirit, liberates from the old religion which is abused by sin and leads to death. Moule likewise understood this as a reference to the law of Moses, thus:

To call that sacred Code, the Decalogue, "the law of sin and death" is not to say that it is sinful and deathful. It need only mean, and we think it does mean, that it is sin's occasion and death's warrant, by the unrelieved collision of its holiness with man's fallen will.


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Steve

 2004/3/19 22:12Profile
educk
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Joined: 2004/3/20
Posts: 1


 Re: God's Will and Sin

Steve

This is eddie. First off, the point of the post is to show that we all have some legalistic streak in us, and I agree with some comments here – Christianity is not void of commandments – but our focus as you said is fulfilling them, and our only means to do that is through the life of Christ. Whenever God places a demand in us in the New Testament, it always turns out that the demand can only be met through the indwelling Christ. All Paul’s sermons are structured that way.

Getting back to the law and specifically our discussion on it, here are some additional points for you.

The Ten Commandments was only given to Israel as was the promise of land God was giving them. We did not inherit the land, and neither was the covenant or the law made with the Gentiles, but with the nation of Israel. Jesus did bring a brand new covenant for us – making the first obsolete Heb 8.13. God did not make such a covenant or given such a command to any other nation

Backup scriptures for this: Deut 4.1,44,45 Deut 5.1,6 – which included the Ten Commandments. Also see Ex 34.27,28 and 1 Kings 8.9,21 and Deut 4.7-13 (No other nation had such a great law as the Ten Commandments)

The Sabbath was given to only Israel – Deut 5.15 Israel (v1) was a slave in the land of Egypt, God brought them out and commanded them to keep the Sabbath day. See also Ex 31.13,16,17 The Sabbth was a sign between God and Israel and Israel like circumcision was (Gen 17, Rom 4.11). How could it have been a sign between God and Israel if He had given the same law to other nations too? Would a ring be a sign of a man’s special relationship with his wife, if he gave similar rings to many other woman?

Today, people need not keep the command revealed through Moses, including the Ten Commands and the Sabbath, for the same reason we do not build arks like Noah or sacrifices sons like Abraham. God did not address these commands to us.

God removed the Old Testament Laws, because they fulfilled their purpose, and I can take you through hoards of New Testament Scriptures to show you this.

I would much rather focus on what Jesus told us to do and the Apostles taught us the way is, for simply this reason. When we invoke the law – it psychologically brings all the baggage that comes with the law, and Paul made it very clear that our departure point in Christ is not law and rule keeping, but grace. Does grace mean we do whatever the heck we like – no again – Paul explains that our freedom if abused is not freedom, but turns into slavery.

So, to conclude on this round, my point is to teach people what grace is, because we already know what the law is. If you are a Christian, then as you say, you will basically do the things the 10 commandments commands, but not because we are commanded to keep them in the New Covenant, but because we have a New and better Covenant that teaches us that when we obey Jesus commandment to love one another, that this becomes a mute point.

I would still argue that in Christ we are free from sin, For the law of the life-giving Spirit in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death. When we understand the Spirit of Life and the two tree’s, then in the same manner that sin and death came to us through the old tree, so does life come to us through the tree of Life. We don’t have to think about it, because it’s the Spirit that transforms us and just as we did not have to think about sinning, so we don’t have to think about doing righteousness. It flows to us in the same manner through grace. Does it all happen in one day – no, but it’s all about semantics of where our focus is.

I hope that further clarifies my point about the Ten Commandments. Let’s teach people to focus on Christ. When they do, then He will work out the laws written on their hearts and minds. Our job is not to compel people to keep rules, but to teach them how to find Christ, who will work in us to will and do that which the Father desires.

Peace!

 2004/3/20 1:53Profile
seekinggod
Member



Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re: God's Will and Sin

Brother,

You wrote:

Quote:
but our focus as you said is fulfilling them



I agree. :)

My only point is that the Helper will work in us to fight the sin and death of this world.

Salvation by works? No. Not the road I am going down.

Thank you for clarifying your point.


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Steve

 2004/3/20 8:55Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I am not implying a works-based scenario. That is taking my post out of context.



I'm not sure why you put up a defense for a charge never brought.


Quote:
Being in Christ does not mean we are free from the laws of sin and death.



Yes it does mean we are free from the laws of sin and death, I believe these laws are inward principles of action. By the Spirit of life the law of love is written on the heart and although the righteousness of the law is not fulfilled by us, it is fulfilled in us. There is something placed in our hearts that answers the spirit of the law.

[i]For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.[/i](Phi 2:13) Once we get faith to expect that from God, God will do all for us. I believe the danger comes when we fail to expect this from God and we then settle for second best with the all too familiar line, "I'm only human". But even when failure sometimes comes, if we maintain our trust in Phillipians 2:13 our faith will grow stronger and stronger and we will be kept by God.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/3/20 16:25Profile
seekinggod
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Joined: 2004/3/3
Posts: 54
Fond du Lac, WI

 Re: God's Will and Sin

Quote:
Once we get faith to expect that from God, God will do all for us.



That was my point. :-)

And I implied the "charge" because of your rebuttal, which appeared to be a challenge.

Quote:
What do you make of these verses then?



If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

If I appeared defensive, it was because when the words "10 commandments" appear in a post, many times GRACE is screamed before the post is read.


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Steve

 2004/3/20 18:32Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2850
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
If I am wrong, I stand corrected.

If I appeared defensive, it was because when the words "10 commandments" appear in a post, many times GRACE is screamed before the post is read.



No problem, and I don't think you will find much of that type of reaction to the 10 commandments here among the members of this forum.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2004/3/20 20:33Profile





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