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WACKHIMTONY
Member



Joined: 2005/9/23
Posts: 10
Reading, UK

 Re:

Can anyone help on singing in tongues? In the church I attend, if someone speaks in tongues we wait for an interpretation. I can't quote it exactly, but basically there should be just one at a time followed by an interpretation so an unbeliever isn't confused etc. Our church is quite strict on this, but doesn't seem to mind lots of people singing in tongues with no interpretation. Not a massive issue to me really, I just don't undertand why speaking without an interpretation is wrong, but a whole room singing is ok.

Thanks,
Pete


_________________
Pete

 2007/3/26 10:23Profile









 Re:

That is an excellent question. I do not have an answer but I'm responding to let you know that I've heard singing in tongues intrepreted, NOT very often but I have. It was when this man's singing rose above the crowds singing and you just knew - it was a singing message and it silenced everyone else. It was beautiful.

 2007/3/26 11:00









 Re: understanding a "tongue"?

Quote:

BeYeDoers wrote:
Quote:
The greek word "gloóssai" means language, and a language that can be understood by those hearing it.



No, the Greek word γλωσσαι means "tongue", as in the thing in your mouth. In most cases, it is understood as "language" b\c that is what we use our tongue for. But it isn't always used in that way. And no, speaking in tongues isn't always understood by the hearer (1 Co 14:2). Exegesis, not eisegesis.

I know it wasn't your intention, so please don't take it as personal, just trying to make sure we aren't misinforming one another

;-)


Thanks for this comment ByD (by the way, what's your real name?)

This all (many of the posts on this thread) goes to show that there are indeed "various kinds of tongues". Not only different languages but different purposes and ways of operating.

As I said before, how dare we try to put the Holy Spirit in a box, and insist that He must work only according to our ideas and interpretations!

Yet there is such a thing as demonic tongues, and we do need the gift of discernment. Not a special gift as such but anyone in the Spirit should recognise something unpleasand in such a "tongue".

"Tongues can also be "of the flesh" or a genuine gift operated in the flesh.

What really makes me cringe is when someone tries to get a person "baptised in the Spirit" by telling them to "say after me..."

As has been said, the genuine gift can't be received by anything other than the sovereign will of God - through someone's laying on of hands or otherwise.

Re whether tongues is a known or unknown language, again I think there is tremendous variation of both language and purpose, and means of operation. I've heard of someone speaking in their own language for example and others hearing it in their own (different) language. Not so much a gift of tongues but a gift of hearing.

I know someone whose usual "tongue" sounds very much like Hebrew, and probably is Hebrew or a related language.

Then there was the case of someone speaking out in tongues in a meeting, in England, with no interpretation that anyone knew of at the time.

After the meeting some people went up to the speaker and started talking to her in Welsh. She looked blank which really confused them because the tongue she had was actually Welsh!

What a witness, especially as they were unbelieving visitors to that church!

But there are other times when no-one seems to know what is being said.

Has anyone had the experience of hearing (or even speaking in) a "tongue"; you don't know what it means, yet your heart leaps? I sometimes find myself saying, "YES!" and "AMEN!" without having a clue on the meaning. My mind doesn't understand, but my spirit does, and that's what really matters.

Jeannette

 2007/3/26 15:45









 Re:

Quote:

WACKHIMTONY wrote:
Can anyone help on singing in tongues? In the church I attend, if someone speaks in tongues we wait for an interpretation. I can't quote it exactly, but basically there should be just one at a time followed by an interpretation so an unbeliever isn't confused etc. Our church is quite strict on this, but doesn't seem to mind lots of people singing in tongues with no interpretation. Not a massive issue to me really, I just don't undertand why speaking without an interpretation is wrong, but a whole room singing is ok.

Thanks,
Pete


Hi Pete

Perhaps its because singing in tongues by a group of people together is usually worship? If so, it doesn't specially need interpretation, becasue (usually) everyone knows what is happening and doesn't need to understand the words.

If you want to sing in tongues by yourself, and don't know where to start, or how to make a tune, you could try singing to a known tune - an extra verse or verses of a well known hymn for example. I sometimes do that when driving.

Sometimes the Spirit gives a tune as well as words, but I don't see any harm in using one you know instead. The words are still inspired.

The first time I heard genuine singing in tongues it was like sitting in the middle of a giant harp. I couldn't join in then, but my whole being seemed to vibrate with joy.

But sometimes, as someone mentioned, the "groanings that cannot be uttered" are too deep even for words in tongues to express...

Jeannette

 2007/3/26 15:55
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Paul says, "we are not to speak even 5 words without understanding". Even a thousand in unknown tongues means less that 5 with understanding.

What is singing in tongues? Where in scripture is this recommended or given as worship. Even Spanish is a unknown tongue to me, which needs an interpreter for me to understand. I understand a few Spanish words, but cannot tell anyone about Christ without a Spanish, English interpreter of language, like a tongue talker of Navaho translated into English for me.

The only time I see a need for a language interpreter is for understanding what is being said. If there is no understanding don't speak it. To preach the Gospel in a language that is not my native tongue takes the Holy Spirit to make the connection between the speaker and the hearer without and interpreter, this is possible if the Holy Spirit has no other way as it pleases Him. Why pray without understanding? The Holy Spirit prays for us, not through us and He prays with groanings that are not understandable to anyone but He and The God Head, The Father the Son, and the Holy Spirit together Perfect in Union as One God. The Gift of tongues, with an interpreter either human or Spirit. For one purpose only, the preaching of Christ Jesus to the Lost, not for the saved. Man has misused this gift that God has given, for his own manipulation of others, The Spirit would not do this. All Gifts of the Spirit are His and by the Christ that is the True Gift giver that is in us The Holy Spirit has been give the only proper priority working of all gifts, He is the director and disperser of any Gift as it pleases Him.

Of course this is not popular with man.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/26 16:39Profile
intrcssr83
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Joined: 2005/10/28
Posts: 246
Logan City, Queensland, Australia

 Re:

Would it be fair to say that the reason why Paul seemed to put tongues towards the end of the list regarding spiritual gifts was because it was the easiest to counterfeit?

I.e., anyone with a working set of vocal courds can speak utterances that lack tangible understanding, and anyone with sufficient bilingual ability can speak about spiritual matters in their own language yet not necessarily be imparting a prophetic word. Ergo, tongues can be A sign, not necessarily THE sign.

It should be noted that ecstatic vocal expression can be found in other religions as well, especially those that put an emphasis on deep experience of the supernatural. I think Paul was well aware of this when addressing gentile members of the Corinthian church who were probably once affiliated with the Greco-Roman belief system as well as the associated "mystery" cults.

(Not that I'm speaking against the gifts as I regularly use tongues in my own personal prayer life. Though of course, we are to be discerning.)


_________________
Benjamin Valentine

 2007/3/26 19:12Profile









 Re:

Christinyou said:

Quote:
"we are not to speak even 5 words without understanding". Even a thousand in unknown tongues means less that 5 with understanding.

The actual verse is:
Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.



Paul is saying thus: "Yet in the church, I'd rather speak five words with my understanding..............that by my voice I might teach others"

That was the whole purpose of him writing that, Paul was NOT against tongues, but he was telling the Corinthians to be civilized in the use of tongues.

We got to put this altogether with other scriptures, we just don't pick and choose what we like and what we don't like. For if Paul was against the speaking in an unknown tongue, then Paul was at best a good liar.

Quote:
1 Corinthians 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

 2007/3/26 19:19
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

1 Corinthians 14:15-28 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue. Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord. Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe. If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad? But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth. How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.

This is not a giving of acceptance of tongues, it is a warning that speaking to those that don't understand your language which you naturally learned and they not, is fruitless, and the speaker should keep quite in the church. This is not a heavenly language, it is language of different nationalities of the people of the earth that were divided at the Tower of Babble, which divided the whole earth in their ability to speak with coherent understanding of all that existed at the time.
The warning is that the Church should be under one understanding, which is directed and interpreted through the Holy Spirit to all the Body of Christ, His Church.

1Cr 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

1Cr 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether [we be] Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Eph 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

Eph 4:4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

Phl 1:27 Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

Not dividing the Body of Christ by speaking in tongues without understanding by all.

All languages of the earth are capable of being understood by all through the Holy Spirit for the building up of the Church, the Gift of Tongues Or interpret what you are speaking that all might be understood. Paul never needed an interpreter for all that he preached the Gospel of Christ in you the Hope of Glory. How many languages Paul spoke is not important, "more that you all", what is important is that all that heard him speak in their language was directed by the Holy Spirit for the building up of the Church and the bringing of unbelievers to the Cross of Christ and salvation in Christ Jesus.


In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/27 3:56Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
[b]orchardkeepe on 2007/3/26 7:31:57[/b]
The Greek word for "tongues" used here in Acts 2:3 is diamerizómenai gloóssai. In English it means "distributed languages". This is the key. There were 16 languages being spoken and HEARD and that was the miracle. This was an historical event that was taking place. The disciples were preaching and over 16 languages were being heard AT THE SAME TIME. The greek word "gloóssai" means language, and a language that can be understood by those hearing it.


But this moves the miracle from the 120+ to the vast crowd that were listening. The Acts reference is to a miracle of 'speaking'. Your understanding converts it to a miracle of 'hearing'. This would not then be 'speaking in tongues' but 'hearing in tongues'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/3/27 6:15Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Ron,

I have puzzled over this same difficulty. Acts only records Peter preaching and each hearing in his own language. I have considered the possibility that many who were in that upper room were preaching this same word, either dispersed throughout the crowd or together, although this isn't the scriptural reference. It is more than likely your view is correct. I wonder about interpretation of tongues. As in the fact that when a prophetic tongue is spoken someone needs to interpret. That interpreter does not of necessity know the language spoken, yet is able to speak in intelligable language what was spoken. Perhaps the hearers at Pentacost were given this same gift.

In Christ,

Doug


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Doug Fussell

 2007/3/27 10:42Profile





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