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 Re:

Quote:
my reasoning


I would beware of believing that we can reason God fully. Some things are a mystery and truly election and predestination are. My ways are above your ways and my thoughts are above your thoughts saith the Lord God almighty. May every mouth be stopped before God. I am personally willing to accept I cannot figure out election and freewill. And also to give to God the right to be soveriegn in certain areas and I don't have to be privy to them.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/3/23 17:11Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Notice what this Scripture says
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall [b]my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.[/b]

It does not say "all", but rather "many". Why would they be justified? Because He would bear their iniquities.

Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, [b]and to give his life a ransom for many.[/b]
Again not "all"

Matthew 26:28 For [b]this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many[/b] for the remission of sins.
Here it seems Jesus is limiting the Atonement does it not?

John 1:12 But [b]as many as received him[/b], to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Now notice how this happens
John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, [b]nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.[/b]

John 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, [b]that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.[/b]

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and [b]as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.[/b]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, [b]that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.[/b]
Not all the world, but many.

Hebrews 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things,[b]in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.[/b]

Hebrews 9:28 [b]So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many[/b]; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

There are many more verses, to post, and I believe Jay has already done a wonderful job of explaining 2 Peter 3:9 on another thread of which I cannot recall at the moment, but I will post a tiny bit here.

2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
First question is who is Peter addressing here? The beloved in verse 8
Second question is who is God longsuffering towards? Us or us-ward
Third question then is who is the us? Must be the beloved in verse 8 as noone else has been mentioned.

So who is God not willing to let perish? All of "us" which would be the Church, or Christians if you like. He wants them to come to repentance, and will work so that not one of God's elect shall be lost, and not one drop of Christ's precious blood shall be wasted.

Lastly the "any" refers to the us as a certain number, here is the Thayer's definition
τίς
tis
Thayer Definition:
1) a certain, a certain one
2) some, some time, a while


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patrick heaviside

 2007/3/23 17:21Profile









 Re:

Quote:
"God that initiates"



I do agree with Finney that God must initiate man's conversion, or else man would never be converted.

The Spirit must draw them, by presenting to their mind the influence of truth. Without the Spirit's presentation of the truth, sinners would only serve their Sensibilities.

Quote:
calvanist...know we have a freewill



The Calvinists view of free-will is that man is free to sin, but not free to obey. This is not a free will under the law of liberty, but this is the will under the law of necessity. And it is completely contrary to the teachings on free-will found among the Early Church Fathers.

The [b]Orthodox doctrine of free will[/b] is that all men can either will or nill, recieve or reject.

If it happen by fate that men are either good or wicked; the good were not good , nor should the wicked be wicked.” Justin (the) Martyr

“Every created being is so constituted as to be capable of vice and virtue. For he can do nothing praise worthy, if he had not the power of turning either way.” Justin (the) Martyr

“Unless we suppose man has the power to choose the good and refuse the evil, no one can be accountable for any action whatever.” Justin (the) Martyr

“God had not made man, like the trees and the brutes, without the power of election.” Justin (the) Martyr

“Man being appointed for God’s judgment, it was necessary to the justice of God’s sentence that man should be judged, according to the deserts of his free will.” Turtullian

“Man, a reasonable being, and in the respect like God, is made free in his will, and having power over himself, is the cause that sometimes he becomes wheat and sometimes chaff.” Irenaeus

“They who do good shall obtain honor and glory, because they have done good when they could forbear doing it. And they who do it not shall receive just judgment of our God; because they have not done good when they could have done it.” Irenaeus

“What is forced is not pleasing to God, but what comes from a truly virtuous motive, and virtue comes from the Will not from Necessity.” Basil

“The will depends on what is within us, and within us is free will.” Basil

“Forasmuch as God has put good and evil in our power, he has given us free power to choose the one or the other; and as he does not retain us against our will, so he embraces us when we are willing.” Chrysostom

“After a wicked man, if he will, is changed into a good man; and a good man, through sloth, falls away and becomes wicked; because God hath endowed us with free agency; not does he make us to do things necessarily, but he places proper remedies before us, and suffers all to be done according to the will of the patient.” Chrysostom

“God hath endowed us with free will. We are not necessarily drawn either to virtue or vice. For when Necessity rules, there is no room left either for d**nation or crown.” Jerome

“Even to those who shall be wicked, God gives power to repent and turn to him.” Jerome

“Our will is kept free to turn either way, that God may dispense his rewards and punishments, not according to his own pre-judgment, but according to the merits of everyone.” Jerome

“Let the man who condemns it [free will] be himself condemned.” Jerome

“It would be more just to punish the stars, which make a wicked action necessary, than to punish the poor man, who does that wicked action by necessity.” Epiphanius

“The soul does not incline to either part out of necessity, for then neither vice nor virtue could be ascribed to it; not would its choice of virtue deserve reward; nor could its declinations to vice punishment.” Origen

“How could God require that of man which he had not power to offer Him?” Origen

“Ten thousand things may be found both in the gospels and authorities of the apostles, clearly manifesting the liberty and self election of man.” Theodorite

“For how can He [God] punish a nature which had no power to do good, but was bound in the hands of wickedness.” Theodorite

Neither promises nor reprehensions, rewards, nor punishments are just, “if the soul has not the power of choosing or abstaining, but evil is involuntary.” Clemens of Alexandria

“This opinion”, the doctrine of necessity, “absolves sinners, as doing nothing of their own accord, which was evil; and would cast all the blame of the wickedness committed in the world, upon God, and upon His providence.” Eusebius

Regarding free will, “this is not only ours, but the opinion of all who speak orthodoxy, of rational being.” Didymus

“God does not command impossibilities” Augustine

“They that came to Christ ought not to impute it to themselves, because they came, being called: and they that would not come, ought not to impute it to another, but only to themselves, because they are called, it was in their power of their free will to come.” Augustine

“What man ought to do, he can do.” Pelagius

Here are some quotes after the Early Church Fathers:

“What man ought to do, he can do.” A. W. Tozer

“Does God give commands which man cannot obey? Is he so arbitrary, so severe, so unloving, as to issue commandments which cannot be obeyed? The answer is that in all the annals of Holy Scripture, not a single instance is recorded of God having commanded any man to do a thing, which was beyond his power. Is God so unjust and so inconsiderate as to require of man that which he is unable to render? Surely not! To infer it is to slander the character of God.” E. M. Bounds

“Everyone knows that the peculiar doctrines [necessity] to which the victory was assigned by the Synod [of Dort] was absolutely unknown in the first ages of the Church.” Mosheim

“The Church teachers agreed unanimously, in maintaining the free will of man as a necessary condition of the existence of morality.” Neander

“the earliest Christian fathers unanimously ascribed to man freedom of will, according to which he can choose either the good or the bad.” Bredschneider

The “Ancient Fathers held to autexousion, understanding by this, or the term liberum arbitrium, the power of man to choose the good or evil freely without compulsion.” Knapp

“All the Fathers differed from Augustine and agreed with Pelagians in attributing free will to man.” Wiggers

“The Greek Fathers above others, and among them especially Chrysostom, have exceeded bounds in extolling the power of the human will…they attribute to man too much power to become virtuous.” John Calvin

 2007/3/23 17:22
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Daniel 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Isaiah 14:24 The LORD of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:

Isaiah 14:27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Of course these are but a small portion of Scripture referring to God's Sovereign decrees. But the question remains, is God anxiously awaiting the decision of men, and unfolding His purpose as man chooses? If so could not the Scriptures be in error because man exerted his "free will" while penning them?

Or does God know the end from the beginning, and has set His love upon those whom He foreknew, before they had done anything bad or good?

Is God at the beck and call of man, or is man a greated being of God, and thus resposible for his sin against His goodness?

Jesse, I admire your zeal always have. But what concerns me is that if you continue on in Finneyesque way, you will leave people moral, but without hope. You will replace Christ and His finished work with man's striving to be morally acceptable to God, and that is where I am coming from.

Blessings to you and congratualtions(belated) on your marriage.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/3/23 17:49Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Jesse, I admire your zeal always have. But what concerns me is that if you continue on in Finneyesque way, you will leave people moral, but without hope. You will replace Christ and His finished work with man's striving to be morally acceptable to God, and that is where I am coming from.



I totally understand.

All I'm saying is this:

Heb 5:9 - And being made perfect, he became the author of [b]eternal salvation[/b] unto all them that [b]obey[/b] him;

While I do believe that Finneyism and the Early Church doctrines are pretty much completely biblical and orthodox, and Augustinianism and Calvinism seems very heretical, I do not let theological disagreements blind my eyes as to not see that there are Christians in many different (and opposing) theological camps, and revivals have transcended theological boundaries.

But like Ravenhill said, "75% of Finneys converts stayed, because he knew how to attack the human will".

 2007/3/23 18:01
Koheleth
Member



Joined: 2005/11/10
Posts: 530
NC

 Re: Limited Atonement??

EDIT: I was admonished for this post and agree with the admonishment. The content was off-topic.

 2007/3/23 18:19Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Quote:
I would beware of believing that we can reason God fully. Some things are a mystery and truly election and predestination are. My ways are above your ways and my thoughts are above your thoughts saith the Lord God almighty. May every mouth be stopped before God. I am personally willing to accept I cannot figure out election and freewill. And also to give to God the right to be soveriegn in certain areas and I don't have to be privy to them.



Amen Greg!

by the way, Who is this Salvation that you guys are going on and on about?

 2007/3/23 18:23Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:


I think we are dealing with interpretations of the atonement and that's very important for your personal convictions but if these kind of knowledge you have not acquired or receive from your personal intimacy with the Lord and from the bible but you have borrowed from the teachers and theologians i dont think it will profit much for your personal edification.

Unless your reason is set on fire your theology will be stiffing and suffocating to the soul. Dead orthodoxy is our problem, evangelical revival in the 18th and 19th century has been a reaction agaist spiritual and theological laxity.

We need a holy protest and dissatifaction first of all agaist are status quo, our spiritual shallow experiences or backslidings.Personal revival is better then to analyse the atonement and its extent.Childlike faith and attitute evn though with little knowledge will profite more then if we had the academic knowledge of a theologian.

Just sharing some reflections with my brothers in faith.


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Redi

 2007/3/23 18:58Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
But like Ravenhill said, "75% of Finneys converts stayed, because he knew how to attack the human will".



Is it a proven fact that 75% of Finney's converts will be in heaven?

 2007/3/26 11:43Profile





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