SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Christian Perfection (In Greek)

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 )
PosterThread
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I couldn't work out whether I needed to be holy to receive the Spirit or whether I needed the Spirit to be holy.



Dear Ron, would you be willing to share more on this true dichotomy, and from your personal experience? I'd be interested to know what conclusions (if any) you've drawn at this point in your journey with God. I, too, lean more toward Wesleyan holiness, but not as purely and as cut-and-dry as most people think.

Thank you, and I am truly indebted to God for your posts. They bless and challenge me in amazing ways.

Bro. Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/3/24 14:49Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Jimmy, coming from your background and with your interest in theology I'm sure you know that this issue was one of the first splits in the early 20th century pentecostal movement.



Indeed, and this is the primary distinction theologically between the Assemblies of God, and the Church of God (Cleveland, TN). And this is mostly because the founders of the Church of God were died in the wool second-blessing holiness people. However, I think it was about 10-20 years or so into the history of my denomination when it was realized that some in it were not exactly second-blessing holiness.

A split almost happened, but, for numerous reasons both camps within the denomination decided that "sanctification comes after justification" could apply to second-blessing holiness folks, and everybody else that simply said, "yeah, that's a proper ordo salutuos." Now, as far as politics is concerned within the denomination, you won't probably hold a major regional position unless you ascribed unto the three part process. In fact, on the blue index cars that each church has, there are three check boxes to mark for stats: 1) saved 2) sanctified 3) baptized in the Spirit. And it is generally advised to those pastors who don't see it as being three distinct experiences, to just go ahead and check box 2 if box 3 is reported.

It is also interesting to see that within my denomination, even at the school I attended, I have yet to see a professor that holds to second-blessing holiness be able to really be able to describe what it is. And trust me, I spent hours upon hours over lunches grilling them for an answer. It wasn't until I entered seminary and personally studied the works of John Wesley that I came to understand that they had probably never studied the works of John Wesley, yet, it was funny to see they professed a view that is thoroughly Wesleyan. Though I must confess, sometimes I wonder if Wesley even understood what he was saying in regard to Christian perfection!!!! :-)

Quote:

I have some sympathy with Durham's statement above even though I generally align myself with Wesleyan Sanctification theology.



Same here.

Quote:

I couldn't work out whether I needed to be holy to receive the Spirit or whether I needed the Spirit to be holy



LOL. And this is a very serious theological issue in my denomination! My older brother who holds to the three-part view quotes that verse of the Bible that says: "The Holy Spirit cannot dwell in an unclean vessel!" (which of course, does not exist) Then there are folks like Ravenhill (who though not of my denomination, held a two-part view on things) who said that if you were baptized with the Holy Spirit, you would be holy.

As much sympathy I have with these views, I simply can't find anywhere in my Bible where second-blessing holiness is required to being a candidate for the baptism, or where it is said that having received the baptism will indeed impart actual holiness to an individual. Of course, I know you kinda sit in a gray area (imo) regarding the baptism of the Spirit being a post-conversion experience anyway, so!!!!! But what I see in Scripture (as well as from personal experience) is that the baptism of the Holy Spirit simply brought a fire to my life that I did not have prior to it. I found myself suddenly with an overwhelming zeal and desire to preach and teach. In my experience, it didn't make me live holier. For I still struggled with some of the same sins even after that. And indeed, if the baptism were to make us live holier, then perhaps the Corinthians would have been the holiest of them all! But alas...

Quote:

In all honesty I want to hold both together as I illustrated here once before with my theological algebra! I see there are so many personal ways in which men and women have to become 'in Christ' and I share heart fellowship, historically, with many who would spew out my theology. I 'feel' I belong with Wesley AND Whitefield, Spurgeon, Chambers, Tozer... the list would be long but with some notable omissions.

Some years ago I was in a missionary fraternal in Malawi. They folk went around the circle introducing themselves... I am with the Methodists... I am with the United Pentecostal Church... I am with... and so it went on. When it came to me I said "I'm with anyone who will have me." I still feel the same.



Indeed. This is my feeling too. As far as I'm concerned, we shouldn't be of a party spirit. In fact, when I speak of "my denomination" I simply signify it as such because that is the group the church I am a member at belongs to. Had my church been something else altogether, I guess I would be that too. Though I feel most comfortable in Pentecostal based churches (as they will tend not to appreciate one speaking in tongues at most Baptist fellowships!), as far as I'm concerned, so long as Christ lives in you, then I can fellowship with you too :-)


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/3/24 15:25Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I know you kinda sit in a gray area (imo) regarding the baptism of the Spirit being a post-conversion experience anyway, so!!!!!


This thread is probably not the place to discuss this but some people regard me as holding to post-conversion regeneration. I certainly don't regard the word 'conversion' and the word 'regenerated' as synonymous terms.

Quote:
As much sympathy I have with these views, I simply can't find anywhere in my Bible where second-blessing holiness is required to being a candidate for the baptism, or where it is said that having received the baptism will indeed impart actual holiness to an individual.


The first statement here would just not arise with my theology on this topic but there may be a verse which somewhat supports the second.

The events at the home of Cornelius have three separate records in the Acts.
1. Acts 10 is the actual event
2. Acts 11 is Peter's explanation to the folks in Jerusalem
3. Acts 15 is a kind of post-script. I reckon the Jerusalem conference to have been approx 5-6 years after the events of Acts 10.

I am very interested in testimonies which are given after reflection. Deuteronomy and John's Gospel fit into this category, but so does Acts 15. Peter's contribution to the discussion contains these words...“And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”(Acts 15:7-11 KJVS)
There is some very interesting theology in this verse. Especially the fact that Peter declares that what happened in Caesarea was that 'hearts were purified by faith' and this plainly is the event that Peter refers to in Acts 11:15-16 as 'baptism in the Holy Spirit'.

According to Peter in Acts 15 this was a 'saving experience'. So just what did happen in Caesarea? Were they saved? sanctified? or empowered?

...yes! :-D

...and this comprehensive experience [u]I[/u] call 'baptism in the Spirit'. ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/24 17:17Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Dear Ron, would you be willing to share more on this true dichotomy, and from your personal experience?


I'm not being coy but I hestitate to say more at this juncture. Simply because I think it is important for us to examine the biblical record rather than our own personal experiences.

I need to examine my experience against the testimony of the scripture. If they do not match properly I must not conform my understanding of scripture to my imperfect experience but seek God for more of what He has for me.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/24 17:25Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
If they do not match properly I must not conform my understanding of scripture to my imperfect experience but seek God for more of what He has for me.



I was hoping you had some that [i]did[/i] match properly! 8-)

I suppose I could have stated it better, that what I really wanted was your current [i]understanding[/i] of being Holy to receive the Spirit versus receiving the Spirit to be holy, as it aligns with scripture. That is what I meant by your "experience". Sorry it was unclear.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/3/24 18:19Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

This is not like the pickle, that is Bapto, put in into boiling water, then baptizo, being immersed in vinegar and so from vegetable to pickle. This is not our experience as new creatures in Christ Jesus. The cucumber is still a cucumber just changed by boiling it and putting it in vinegar. The Christian experience is not that way. Baptizing into Christ is a complete union with the believer making him a new creature. Not just a changed human being into a Christian and becoming one more and more. It is being killed and new creature created in its place. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This must be by faith to be by experience that has already occurred by the Christ that is birthed in us. A complete new person and race of people a new creature.
2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

This is not a regeneration process it is The Glory of God and the fulfillment of the Plan of God in its miracle of Christ being the life of the New Creature that is Born Again from above.

Colossians 1:25-28 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

This is God's doing and His revelation to the believer, that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, takes no repentance no baptism in water, but the work of God giving the new creature the Born Again experience of being born again of Spirit and the Living Water, Christ Himself by His Incorruptable Seed birthed in us, That is Him, Jesus Christ the living Word of God, a Person of New Life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Who baptizes us into the Holy Spirit?

Who teaches us this new creature, who this Christ is that is now our life, "Christ liveth in me"?

Not a second blessing but an answered prayer of Jesus Christ. Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you for ever;

1. New birth, 2. The Comforter, Teacher Holy Spirit.

I don't know when or in what progression this is accomplished in the plan of God, but I know it all has happened to me and I cannot give you dates.

In Christ: Phillip





_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/25 0:39Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
This is not like the pickle, that is Bapto, put in into boiling water, then baptizo, being immersed in vinegar and so from vegetable to pickle. This is not our experience as new creatures in Christ Jesus. The cucumber is still a cucumber just changed by boiling it and putting it in vinegar. The Christian experience is not that way. Baptizing into Christ is a complete union with the believer making him a new creature. Not just a changed human being into a Christian and becoming one more and more. It is being killed and new creature created in its place. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. This must be by faith to be by experience that has already occurred by the Christ that is birthed in us. A complete new person and race of people a new creature.


You are mixing metaphors here with the result that you are producing a false triumphalism. The picture of 'baptism' is not obliteration but union. Yes we are baptised into His death in the Spirit but 'we' still live... yet not 'we'.


Quote:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


The tenses in your verses are very instructive. Whenever the scripture speaks of the death of the "old man" it uses Aorist tenses which indicate single actions; best translated by the simple past tense as in "our old man was co-crucified with him". But Galatians 2:20 does not use the Aorist tense but the Perfect tense. The sense of the Perfect Tense is of something that occurred in the past but continues into the present. This gives an entirely different picture to your obliteration notion. Different translations have tried in different ways to capture this eg“[u]I have been crucified[/u] with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.” (Gal 2:20 NKJV)

“[u]I am crucified[/u] with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Gal 2:20 KJVS)Which is correct? [b]Both are correct[/b], the Perfect Tense could legitimately be translated "I have been [u]and[/u] still am co-crucified with Christ". This is not the "old man" but Paul himself. He has been and still is co-crucfied with Christ. It is "I" but not "I".

Your view annihilates Paul's identity.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/25 4:09Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Paul is trying to loose his identity, he says it is no longer he who live, it is no longer he who sins but sin that dwells in him. The more we loose our identity the more Christ becomes our life, the more Christ becomes our life the more we are as Him to the Father, which is how The Father sees us before the foundation of the world, that Christ in you the hope of Glory. Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

Rom 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Phl 1:23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.


Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Crucified:
5777 Tense - Aorist

The aorist tense is characterized by its emphasis on punctiliar
action; that is, the concept of the verb is considered without
regard for past, present, or future time. There is no
direct or clear English equivalent for this tense, though it is
generally rendered as a simple past tense in most translations.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Crucified:
5778 Tense - Perfect

The perfect tense in Greek corresponds to the perfect tense in
English, and describes an action which is viewed as having been
completed in the past, once and for all, not needing to be
repeated.

When I was saved I died to self and live unto God, just like Christ. Being crucified with Christ takes care of my past, at my new birth. Being crucified takes care of my present, seeking the things above Col 3:1-4. Being crucified with Christ takes care of my future, looking for the blessed hope of the redemption of the Body, which will be as Christ is now.

I am delivered by the crucifixion, my death, His life in me, The Spirit of Christ. I am being delivered by the crucifixion, my spirit the Holy Spirit in me. I will be delivered by the crucifixion, my death with and in, by His crucifixion unto a new glorious body like His. The quickened seed planted in the ground which will bring forth the fruit of His resurrection physically, a new body like His. 2Cr 1:10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver [us];


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/25 20:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Paul is trying to loose his identity


No he is not... and this is my main objection to most of your posts on this forum. You are missing out the element of redemption. Redemption means to change ownership by a price paid. God has no intention of annihilating me and prayers prayed along the lines of 'I want to lose my identity' are a slur on God's purpose.

He wants to redeem the land, rid it of all illegal aliens and bring it into great fruitfulness, but the land will still be the land and 'I' will still be 'I' otherwise God could have just cloned Christ.

The hope of glory is not Christ; he always was glorious. The hope of glory is "Christ is you" not "Christ instead of you". To be consistent with your position you need to change your logon name.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/26 9:49Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
philologos on 2007/3/24 22:17:28
This thread is probably not the place to discuss this but some people regard me as holding to post-conversion regeneration. I certainly don't regard the word 'conversion' and the word 'regenerated' as synonymous terms.


I don't usually 'quote myself' but I came across this comment of Oswald Chambers which caught my attention...
"To open their eyes . . . that they may receive . . ." Acts 26:18

This verse is the grandest condensation of the propaganda of a disciple of Jesus Christ in the whole of the New Testament.

The first sovereign work of grace is summed up in the word - "that they may receive remission of sins." When a man fails in personal Christian experience, it is nearly always because he has never received anything. The only sign that a man is saved is that he has received something from Jesus Christ. Our part as workers for God is to open men's eyes that they may turn themselves from darkness to light; but that is not salvation, that is conversion - the effort of a roused human being. I do not think it is too sweeping to say that the majority of nominal Christians are of this order; their eyes are opened, but they have received nothing. Conversion is not regeneration. This is one of the neglected factors in our preaching today. When a man is born again, he knows that it is because he has received something as a gift from Almighty God and not because of his own decision. People register their vows, and sign their pledges, and determine to go through, but none of this is salvation. Salvation means that we are brought to the place where we are able to receive something from God on the authority of Jesus Christ, viz., remission of sins.

Then there follows the second mighty work of grace - "an inheritance among them which are sanctified." In sanctification the regenerated soul deliberately gives up his right to himself to Jesus Christ, and identifies himself entirely with God's interest in other men. My Utmost.. Jan 10th.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/26 18:46Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy