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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Any Brother who says he is without Sin is a What?

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Mike wrote:

Quote:
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

"Yet without sin"



What enabled Him to be without sin?


Quote:
He learned obedience by suffering I thought it was? Suffering in the flesh. Suffering in those misunderstanding Him (Jerusalem! Jerusalem!) and not coming to defend Himself in the way we would often do so. "Which of you accuses Me of sin?" He knew all men and what is in a man.



Who showed Him the things that He was to do?

Matthew 3

1 Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil.


Quote:
Heb 5:8 -
Though he were a Son - Though the Son of God. Though he sustained this exalted rank, and was conscious of it, yet he was willing to learn experimentally what is meant by obedience in the midst of sufferings.



This statement is not supported in Scripture.
The word "experimentally" means that God did not speak to Him. Jesus never did anything experimentally...The Holy Spirit was given to lead Him in the way that He should go. Christ submitted to that leading because He was in all ways made like His brethren. So we too have the same choice. We can choose to follow the Holy Spirit or rebell and continue to follow our carnal mind.



Quote:
Yet learned he obedience - That is, he learned experimentally and practically. It cannot be supposed that he did not “know” what obedience was;



All these words are spoken from a vain imagination...

Listen to what Scripture says...

John 8:28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

These things that I post come day by day as I learn along side you. I have found that Scripture continues to liberate me from the vain imaginations of men. If you find this offensive in the way I share I am sorry. But Scripture will always offend the flesh...it continues to cut me and shrink the old man in me...

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/9 0:57Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:


This post is pretaining to a previous post of Brother Ron.



Quote:
Quote:
In terms of sin, we all are corrupt until the day we are made perfect by Him at ressurection.

What does Scripture say?

Well it certainly doesn't say that. What a pathetic Saviour this would be. This is my Saviour...
Rom. 14:4 (KJVS) Who art thou that judgest another man’s servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

2Cor. 9:8 (KJVS) And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Eph. 3:20 (KJVS) Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

Phil. 3:21 (KJVS) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

2Tim. 1:12 (KJVS) For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Heb. 2:18 (KJVS) For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb. 7:25 (KJVS) Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Jude 24 (KJVS) Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
If we are condemned to the corruption of sin until the resurrection we have serious case of misrepresentation in these verses. Incidentally each one of these verses uses a cognate of 'dunamis' which is translated 'able'. It all links with the great promise of the New Covenant...
“But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”” (Acts 1:8 NKJV)



This verse is taken from Paul's letter to the Phillipians.

Phil 3:17

"But our conversation is in heaven, from whence we look for a saviour even the Lord Jesus Christ, which shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODIES, that they may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able to subdue all things unto himself."

Paul refers to his body in this life as being vile. Does anyone think otherwise?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/9 1:12Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

I am not trying to change the direction of this thread, but just to keep both tracks alive. Listen to this Scripture...

Luke 18:9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, “God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, “God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

According to our doctrine who do we most resemble in this life?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/9 1:28Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
rookie on 2007/4/9 6:12:38
Phil 3:17

"But our conversation is in heaven, from whence we look for a saviour even the Lord Jesus Christ, which shall CHANGE OUR VILE BODIES, that they may be fashioned like unto His glorious body, according to the working whereby He is able to subdue all things unto himself."

Paul refers to his body in this life as being vile. Does anyone think otherwise?



No, he does not refer to his body as vile. You have been drawn into the false dichotomy of body and spirit. All modern version correct the KJV at this point eg “who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself.”
(Phil 3:21 NKJV)In fact they are not so much correcting the KJV as pointing out a word that has changed its meaning. In older writings the word vile means 'of little worth or value'. A good English dictionary will make this point very clear. The English word derives from Middle English through Old French from Latin vilis ‘cheap, base.’ What Paul is doing here is not rubbishing the body, but comparing it to the one we will have in resurrection.

It is really important to get these kind of ideas out of our head otherwise they will trip us up in our hermeneutics again and again. The Bible does NOT teach that the body is 'vile' in our modern sense of that word.

Our body is a glorious gift and a powerful weapon for good or bad.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 2:08Profile









 Re:

Quote:
The Bible does NOT teach that the body is 'vile' in our modern sense of that word.

Our body is a glorious gift and a powerful weapon for good or bad.



That is exactly right. Neither the body nor the blood is a sin in itself. But the body can be used for sin! It can be an instrument of righteousness or an instrument of sin, depending on what we yield it to.

We are not sinners because of the body we inherited. We are sinners because of our own moral choices, because of the way we decided to use our faculties.

 2007/4/9 5:17
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Jesse wrote:

Quote:
That is exactly right. Neither the body nor the blood is a sin in itself. But the body can be used for sin! It can be an instrument of righteousness or an instrument of sin, depending on what we yield it to.



I agree with you to the extent that we are clearly given a choice of who we follow the Spirit or the self.

Rom. 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors—not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Paul goes on to state though...

Romans 8

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

My point is that we always have this "old man" that we can go back to if we choose not to follow the Spirit. It is this old man that causes many to live in a weakened state, a sickly state. Is this not true?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/9 6:44Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Hello,

Quote:
21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.


I don't see that verse proving your point but rather disproving it. That verse says that the children of God have a glorious liberty and that the creation will someday also experience it.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

If the old man is dead, how can it come back alive? Those verses don't show a process, but something that happens in a moment of time.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/4/9 11:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
rookie on 2007/4/9 11:44:58
My point is that we always have this "old man" that we can go back to if we choose not to follow the Spirit. It is this old man that causes many to live in a weakened state, a sickly state. Is this not true?


I want to begin with a disclaimer... what follows is not the 'general case' but the 'particular case' of those who have been 'baptised into the death of Christ'. “Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?” (Rom 6:3 NKJV)

That said, the tense used of the crucifixion of the old man in Rom 6:6 is Aorist. The KJV gives the impression that it is a present process eg “Knowing this, that our old man [u][b]is[/b] crucified with[/u] him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
(Rom 6:6 KJVS)... but all revisions make it plain that the tense used is a past tense rather than a present continuous, hence...“knowing this, that our old man [u][b]was[/b] crucified with[/u] Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin.”
(Rom 6:6 NKJV)The death of 'our old man' is not perceived as a process in the New Testament but as a fixed point in time.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 13:26Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote:

Quote; "My point is that we always have this "old man" that we can go back to if we choose not to follow the Spirit. It is this old man that causes many to live in a weakened state, a sickly state. Is this not true"

Not if the old man is dead, or old husband dead (Satan) and we be married to another (Christ), we are dead to sin, being deceived by Satan which gave birth to sin by believing him, now believing that Christ is the Son of God and truth and love coming through our new birth.

"Any man who know to do right and does not do it, to him it is sin."

The Law made sin greatly viable that sin was exceedingly sinful that was in us that kills all mankind because of Adam's sin. Then Satan was put to death on the Cross by the Death of Christ for those that are born again and are in Christ.

Romans 7:3-11 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man. Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Who is the deceiver? Believing the deceiver instead of God and acting on that belief, it slew me, becoming sin in the world.

By Christ we are no longer of this world, as Paul states; Gal 6:14 But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

We are dead to sin and to the effect of the death life of Satan which was our life before our new birth and becoming new creature in Christ.

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

In Christ: Phillip



_________________
Phillip

 2007/4/9 20:56Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Quote:
This statement is not supported in Scripture.
The word "experimentally" means that God did not speak to Him. Jesus never did anything experimentally...



[b]Experimentally
EXPERIMENT'ALLY, adv.[/b] By experiment; by trial; by operation and observation of results.

1. By experience; by suffering or enjoyment. We are all experimentally acquainted with pain and pleasure.

That is the "older" Noah Webster defenition that I am quite sure is the intention of Albert Barnes intention of the word. [i]By experience. By suffering[/i]. That He went throught it not that He was ignorant of it.

Quote:
All these words are spoken from a vain imagination...



You would pit yourself against a learned man with such an easy dismisal? Brother ...

Still you have not answered the rather looming question you posited earlier;

Quote:
He too had a mind that was weak in the flesh...

I do find that rather offensive rather grevious that you would make such a comment. As Ron stated earlier;

Quote:
The issue is whether or not he had, as you say he did, a 'carnal mind'. ie a mind according to the flesh. If he did, we have no Saviour.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/4/10 0:05Profile





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