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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Rapture - A False Hope

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letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Rowdy2,

First off, brother, I haven't talked to you before, so just know that I am not carrying an agenda by asking you this, I just want to know your opinion on what you said to get a clear grasp on your position.

I posted Rev 12 before so that everyone could explain Rev 12's events in order, and it didn't seem to be a popular post: https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14091&forum=36#108710

So please explain:

---Who or what is:---

1) the woman
2) the man child
3) the woman's fleeing
4) Satan's casting from heaven
5) the woman's wings
6) going out of Satan to make war with the seed

---What point of Rev 12 is the rapture?---

---What events these verses are describing:---

1"the woman fled into the wilderness"

2"they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb"

3"the devil is come down unto you"

4"he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child"

5"to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle"

6"the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed"


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2007/3/17 1:56Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:is there a rapture?

hi lastblast, went back and read the 10 virgin parable.I noticed something new. "the door was shut" Also didnt this happen with noah's ark? If you get into who is saved and who isnt then I really dont know.I was mainly referring to the rapture.A cry was heard at midnight. 5 wise had oil . They were allowed to go with the groom. they left. the oters stayed. they went into a room and closed the door. The rapture.I can belabor any analogy. I think you have to keep it simple.Example- I have never seen an evangelist with a literal bag of seed. Or God put a literal coin in anybodys hand. also never saw a christian actually bury a coin. But to address your point of the virgins being shut out. Isee one possible answer right away-Jesus said I will spew you out of my mouth.God hates hypocricy, look at lots wife and annanias and saphira.Look at Peters early ministry.My point is you seem to think "5 left out" trumps bridegroon, bride,oil or lack of oil, 5 leaving,5 staying.When I read this I say to myself "wow i better be ready"..Somewhere i read There will be some saved as through fire . they will be saved but their works burned up. is this correct? Also there is a group of christians that Jesus says "depart from me i never knew you" .... "workers of Inequity" When I look at all of this I say to myself"Hey boy you beter stay on fire" I hope this doesent sound sarcastic and mean - I sure dont want it to.... I love all of you, David

 2007/3/17 10:08Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: The woman

Reply to Hal

I think we agree on much but the timing is were I find myself in the minority because all of The book of the Revelation of Christ as I understand it is past tense until chapter 21 when our church appears in the new heaven and the new earth.


I agree with you the woman is the church or temple. The New Testament temple built on the ruins of the old one. Moses and the law were taken out of the way and we are dead to Moses and the Law which our Lord fulfilled and we are free to wed another and our will being subject to our Lord. We too are begotten by the Holy Spirit and are born again and wed to Christ Jesus spiritually and the members of the of the body of Christ? We are subject to our Lord the Word of God that is manifested on earth in the Body of Christ.

I agree with you that Christ is the man child that is the promised seed of Abraham brought through the spiritual birthright of the chosen of God their Ishi who we are also the spiritual children of by the promise.

The woman fleeing is God’s remnant fleeing Jerusalem being warned by Daniel the prophet they escaped the destruction and slaughter in the siege of Jerusalem by the Romans. When they saw High Priest appointed by the Romans standing in the Temple of God. They that had understanding fled out of Judea because by faith they knew that the Day of the Lord ( Judgement of their church ) was upon them.

Satan being cast out of heaven is the spirit of this world that has dominion in each of us until its cast out and we are born again and the Holy Spirit our heavenly Father gives to them that ask him replaces it is the New Testament reality.

I would say the wings that carried the remnant of Jerusalem to safety were faith and obedience.

Once the spirit of this world is cast out and the kingdom of God has come to a Christian we must occupy our earthly temple and resist the spirit of the world ( Satan ).

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
KJV
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets, even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference, for all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

KJV
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

NKJ
So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

KJV
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

I too know in part. Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/3/17 16:32Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Lastblast,
I think but may be wrong that both of us agree that their will be a tribulation period called the great tribulation after which Jesus returns(The second coming).My point is that the passages below could not be the second coming because they are clearly not living after a time of tribulation.Normal life is going on highlighted by Jesus.The people in both Noah's time and in Sodom and Gomorah are carrying on in an normal fashion eating,drinking,marrying etc
The passage below is about another coming! either that or there is no great tribulation.
[color=990000]
Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe , so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Mat 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
AND
Luk 17:28 Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;[/color]
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/17 19:18Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Lastblast,
[size=xx-small]
Why are we not supposed to be present? In Rom. 11:30-32, it shows that the Jews were present when we came to faith. Why must we be gone when they come to faith? If they are to come to Christ, they will be "in Him" just as much as present day believers are "in Him"........they will be members of The Church, aka: His Body.[/size]
Just to answer the above question,Daniel where we get the seventh wk originally is about God dealing with Isreal.The Church aren't present for the first 69 wks and their not present for the 70th wk either as that wk is for God dealing with Isreal.
Why should they be present for the 70th when the church isnt there for the first 69.
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/17 19:51Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi
Just wanted to agree with this statement below and also that I heard a teacher say that the virgins parable couldnt happen during the tribulation as you could not buy anything unless you had the mark of the beast.

[size=xx-small][color=0000CC]went back and read the 10 virgin parable.I noticed something new. "the door was shut" Also didnt this happen with noah's ark? If you get into who is saved and who isnt then I really dont know.I was mainly referring to the rapture[/color][/size]
rgds staff

 2007/3/17 20:06Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Israel has always been God's people. Not son's of God birthed by the Christ that is in them. One a created race and the other a birthed race.
That is why the separation of the rapture.

He will write His words in their hearts, not born again by the Word of God Himself, "Jesus Christ In you the Hope of Glory." A complete new race of people.

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 8:19 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

Rom 8:20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope,

Rom 8:21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

Rom 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2Cr 5:17 Therefore if any man [be] in Christ, [he is] a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

We the New Creation race of God's children will never know any man in the flesh again, for we are in the Spirit. The promises of God to Israel must be fulfilled in the Flesh by and in which they were promised.

2 Corinthians 5:16-17 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we Him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

That is why the rapture or catching up of the born again spirit filled son's of God in Christ Jesus must come before the promises be fulfilled to Israel. We have no promises except Israel brought Christ into the world to save it, and His voice and a trumpet call.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/17 21:11Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: THERE'S ONLY ONE HOPE CHRIST IN YOU

I know no other man in the flesh but I have ears to hear the truth in the Word of God. The only truth I can build a life on is precept upon precept from the Word of God. I am a born again Christian and came to the Light and became a child of God. My spirit is the only thing that has eternal life and will not return to dust with the flesh that has already been condemned and is already dying and I will be with Jesus on that very day in paradise. If Jesus comes today my spirit will leave this sinful flesh and meet Him in the air to be one spirit with Him and the ones who preceded me in death.. There is no last minute escape for the flesh, the flesh is a part of this world that is in bondage to sin. There is no covenants with death. Accept God’s reconciliation walk out of darkness by repenting and professing with your mouth that Jesus is the resurrected born again begotten Son Of God that proved all the religions of works in the world wrong and this sect of modern day sadducees that don’t believe in the resurrection and the spiritual kingdom. They recite religious historians and other persons foolishness. If one returned from the dead and showed them His nail pierced hands they would not believe the Gospel of the kingdom. They are still married to this worlds carnal wisdom and the beast that must be given its worldly manna. The flesh has the mark of the beast ( Covetousness ) and sells its riches for fame or fortune but the spirit of charity freely gives.

Eddie


_________________
Eddie

 2007/3/18 9:34Profile





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