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psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi Greg, Igot a little problem with the header but it has flushed out the preeezies and the posties. I personally am pre trib.I think the post tribs will be the most surprised people on the face of the earth.I mean when they are caught up with us.Well I dont know maybe God will honor their faith and let them stay.Over the years this debate has not evolved much. It seems to me nobody is persuaded on either side.Have you ever heard a post trib teaching? I never have. All I have ever heard is why the pre tribs are wrong. The post tribs are like a man on a mission,trying to correct false doctrine.Lets play out a post trib "hand".Lets take their position that a rapure does exist but God wants to wait till the last minute.Ok now the antichrist has martyred all the christians and they are all gone. Kinda adds new meaning to the dead in christ rising first. anyway we which are alive and remain {all 2 of us] will be "caught up" [Oh my I just hate that term] with all the dead......Naaa Idont think so. Ok so thousands of us make it through the great trib. Now here comes Jesus on the white horses with the saints and we are caught up with Him . But wait! The horsess are coming right at us! Ok no problem I have received my glorified body. I can do a Roy Rogers and jump on a riderless horse, look in my saddle bag grab a wedding feast sandwich. Wolf it down in record time, and do battle with the antichrist from my white horse. Inever see heaven but thats allright a new jerusalem is comming down.As you cn see post trib has painted its self into a corner.they try to make the great tribulation a "center piece" and fail. The actual "center piece" is the bride grooms union with His bride.The rapture is His way to accomplish this.While the sold out ones are doing business in heaven the luke warmers find themselves in Gods glorious "second chance".They will be marytered and recieve the highest reward.The martyers crown. Do you see why post trib is basically an imposibility? also 2 other things if I take the post trib position no way will I pray "even so come Lord Jesus" Iwill be looking for either antichrist or tribulation, not Jesus.Also what about "surprise"?Ican now calculate Jesus' coming almost to the day. Ahhhh grasshopper now we know the core of post trib doctrine. David

 2007/3/15 11:35Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re: The Rapture - A False Hope

I grabbed a book when I was at the Holy Land Experience that was free with admission. I thought I was going to have found a clear version of the end times event from the popular pre-everything position, to at least begin to figure out exactly what the Bible says and I believe. Turns out the book is called the "Pre-wrath Position Explained."

Basically what Greg has said, the book explained that the church will face Satan's wrath; great tribulation, but the unsaved will face the wrath of God.

I can't get around certain verses with the idea that no born again believer will face tribulation:

---Matthew 26---

9:Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

21:For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

30:And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.


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Hal Bachman

 2007/3/15 21:42Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Hated of all nations for my name's sake


Reply to Hal

I realize that I am in the minority but can you ponder the idea that our Father did judge His Church made with hands? The Word of God is full of passages that warned of the coming judgement of Israel. A clear picture is given of the judgement of a third part of the Jews and our Heavenly Father’s protection of the [Saints [or they that have eternal life no longer a little lower that angels. }


Revelation 12

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven a woman clothed
with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her
head a crown of twelve stars

And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and
pained to be delivered.

And there appeared another wonder in heaven and behold a
great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and
seven crowns upon his heads.

And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and
did cast them to the earth and the dragon stood before the
woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her
child as soon as it was born.

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations
with a rod of iron and her child was caught up unto God, and
to his throne.

And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place
prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand
two hundred and threescore days.

And there was war in heaven Michael and his angels fought
against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels,

And prevailed not neither was their place found any more in
heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called
the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world he was
cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with
him.

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come
salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the
power of his Christ for the accuser of our brethren is cast
down, which accused them before our God day and night.

And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the
word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto
the death.

Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe
to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil
is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he
knoweth that he hath but a short time.

And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he
persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that
she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she
is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the
face of the serpent.

And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after
the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the
flood.

And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her
mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out
of his mouth.

And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war
with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments
of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. KJV




The Church not made with hands is a chaste bride holy and with out spot. Thank God, thank God Almighty and the Lamb our kingdoms foundation, walls and gates are named after the Saints so when you sit down in the House [KINGDOM OF DAVID]and pick up the Word of God you are fellowshiping with them. Eddie


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Eddie

 2007/3/16 17:52Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: glorified in His saints

Reply to Cindy

We aswered the knock and The Risen Glorified Christ Son of God came to us. It's His kingdom but many leave Him outside.

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day. Eddie


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Eddie

 2007/3/16 18:14Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi,reply to Lastblast

I have to disagree with you that destruction will be complete at the Second Coming:

[size=x-small]Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and [I saw] the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received [his] mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.[/size]

If destruction was complete where and who did Christ reign over for a thousand years?The great tribulation which lasts three and half yrs is not a complete distruction anyway.
Also in the second coming Christ comes all the way to earth but in the rapture the saints meet him in the air.In the picture of sodom and gomorah in particular the pattern is to send in two messengers,just like the time of the end when the two witnesses are raptured just before God's Judgement begins.They had to be out of there before Judgement could start,but that judgement wasn't complete.
God has to deal with the Jews without us present in the end,similar to the Joseph and his family,

[size=x-small]Gen 45:1 ¶ Then Joseph could not refrain himself before all them that stood by him; and he cried, Cause every man to go out from me. And there stood no man with him, while Joseph made himself known unto his brethren.[/size]
Joseph revealed himself his family in private.

Besides this A rapture after the tribulation makes no logical sense,it has no reason to it.
[color=0000CC]Further more if sodom and gomorah and The Ark are a picture of the Second Coming then the earth is in a healthy state e.g they did marry,they eat,they drank(doesnt sound like they were distressed in any way,not bad considering Angels were pouring out vials of Judgement etc )[/color]

The people of Noah's Day were in no distress,neither were the residents of Sodom or Gomorah but when the Godly People were taken up Judgement came,Only then
Our blessed hope remains
rgds Staff

 2007/3/16 19:02Profile
PaulBenson
Member



Joined: 2004/10/14
Posts: 20
Kalispell Montana USA

 Re: The Rapture - A False Hope

Greg; I wholeheartedly agree that the notion of a rapture before the time of the great tribulation is not only a false hope but is also I feel one of the strongest sleeping pills the Church has ever swollowed.
The brother who suggested the pretrib rapture was believed by, and taught by, the early Church has obviously not spent much time reading the writing of those men.
I recommend highly a book offered for free which can be found at:

http://voiceofelijah.org/library/antichristdl.pdf

Bro. Harper give us a good look at the writings of a couple of early fathers who were 2nd generation diciples of the Apostle John. Hippolytus and Ireaneus. There is no hint of a pretrib rapture found in their words, in fact quite the opposite.

The pretrib rapture is lying man-made myth! It is not something that is explicitly taught by Scripture, it has to be taught by implication. (as are many other myths and false beliefs) I strongly exhort any who hold to this veiw to sincerely ask the Father to reveal the truth on this matter. It is NOT a harmless teaching, it influences folks think they dont need to prepare spiritually for the times to come because they think they wont be here.
Corrie Ten Boom said the ministers promoting the pretrib teaching are the false teachers Jesus warned us would deceive the Church in the last days! She witnessed first hand the damage this teaching did in China. When times of tribulation hit China many believers stumbled in ther faith when faced with hardships they were not ready to face because they were told dont worry you wont be here, so the preparation of heart necessary to face such times never took place in ther walk. They had ignored God's dealings with them in these areas per the instruction they recieved from deceived ministers preaching escapism.
Also important to know is that the misguided folks who had taught the pretrib myth lost all credibility as ministers and were shunned as false teachers! BEWARE! Those teaching this pretrib nonsense in our nation will face the same treatment in times to come!
Greg, thank you for your efforts to help people see the truth of this matter and your grace in handling those of a differing opinion. May God help us a Body to 'prove all things and hold fast that which is good'. Lord Bless.


_________________
Paul Benson

 2007/3/16 19:53Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re: NOT a harmless teaching, it influences folks think they dont need to prepare spiritually for the

Hi,
Just A question are you against pretribulation rapture teaching or rapture teaching in total?

[size=x-small]BEWARE! Those teaching this pretrib nonsense in our nation will face the same treatment in times to come![/size]

The followers of Elijah didnt believe in rapture either and against the advice of Elisha searched in vain for a few days in the wilderness looking for him.These were prophets who came under the ministry of Elijah and still didnt believe God had taken him away.

[size=x-small][color=003300]NOT a harmless teaching, it influences folks think they dont need to prepare spiritually for the times to come because they think they wont be here[/color][/size]
[color=3300FF]
On the above Elijah knew for a long period of time that he would not see death but would be raptured and this did not effect him or his ministry negatively and as we know Elijah was prepared spiritually.After all The new testament says Elijah was man like us.
This arguement that their is no rapture beacause it will effect us negatively is unscriptural and not a valid argument at all[/color]
However it a mistake to teach the rapture and not point out that this doesnt mean we dont go through trials and persecution perhaps even on to death
before the time of the great tribulation,
perhaps thats the mistake they made in China
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/16 20:17Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
I have to disagree with you that destruction will be complete at the Second Coming:



Hi Staff,

When I spoke of the days of Noah and Lot, it is true that all who were not in a place of safety were KILLED. There were no survivors. The concept of a pretrib rapture(where Billions are left on the earth at the time of a "snatching") does in no way align with the scenerio of either the flood or of the destruction of S&G. So, with that in mind, we would need to ask ourselves what Jesus meant then? If we are to seek through scripture, we will see some things spoken about the Second Coming of Jesus-----II Thess. 1:6-10----we see that the angels take vengance on them that know not Jesus or obey Him.

In Rev. 11:15-18, we see at the sounding of the 7th trumpet, Judgment has come---upon ALL of mankind. Those who belong to the Lord are rewarded. Those who do not belong to the Lord are judged.

In Rev. 6:9-11 we see that judgment of wicked mankind will not come until the last martyr has been martyrd......again, reaffirming II Thess. 1:6-10.

In II Pet. 3:9 we see that when the Day of the Lord comes(as a thief) it will result in utter destruction/annilation. Notice what Peter says immediately before that: this day will not come until those who are to repent and believe come to the faith.........this is what Jesus is waiting for. Pre-trib teaches after Jesus snatches away His church, many will come to faith during the tribulation. That contradicts this passage in which we see Jesus waiting for all that will belong to Him to repent.

Quote:
God has to deal with the Jews without us present in the end,similar to the Joseph and his family



Why are we not supposed to be present? In Rom. 11:30-32, it shows that the Jews were present when we came to faith. Why must we be gone when they come to faith? If they are to come to Christ, they will be "in Him" just as much as present day believers are "in Him"........they will be members of The Church, aka: His Body.

Quote:
The people of Noah's Day were in no distress,neither were the residents of Sodom or Gomorah but when the Godly People were taken up Judgement came,Only then
Our blessed hope remains




The people in Noah's day were WICKED, they were murderers, adulterers, vile......and you don't believe they were in stress? I disagree. The same can be said of S&G.

You are correct, that when the Godly people are safe, then God's Vengeance will be unleashed---but to me, there's no credible evidence in scripture that this will occur before the second coming of Jesus in Glory with all His Holy Angels, when they will separate the Godly from the Ungodly (Mt. 3:12) and then cleanse the earth with fire as Pet. speaks of in II Pet. 3:10. The wheat and the tares will grow TOGETHER until the angels come and separate them, at the end of this world (Mt. 13:37-43).

I think some are in Great error, believing their Hope is in the timing of His coming rather than the fact that He IS coming and that He will keep all those who belong to Him, whether He keeps them through their death(natural or unnatural) or allows them to be the few who are alive and remaining when He comes. Blessings.......

:-)


_________________
Cindy

 2007/3/16 22:40Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi everyone, Just wanted to add that the 5 foolish and 5 wise virgins also point to a pre trib rapture.there are so many dilemas for trying to make post trib rapture fit.No one knows the hour of Jesus coming. It is a surprise. But if I try to combine the rapture in with the second coming,at the end of the tribulation,cant I calculate his approximate return? As for the china pastors regrets,I think it is a cop-out to blame the rapture teaching on anything.It is scripture.He should have taught them about afflictions and persecutions.period.He would have done good to have read fox's book of maryters to them.Isnt it in 1 thes.where it says therefore comfort one another with these words?Oh wait now i see what your getting at,your saying the pre trib rapture is false doctrine and its so false that somehow it is to blame for the persecuted christians loss of hope. this has to be a first.

 2007/3/17 0:51Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Hi Psalm,

I think the problem with the 10 virgins being about a pre-trib rapture is what happens when the virgins that are left come to the door knocking? This is a point I have yet to see a pre-trib teacher address. Do we find anywhere in scripture prior to the final judgment where Jesus turns away those who come to Him? Does He ever say to anyone who comes to Him (signifying they are His), "I know you not".??

"all that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out." Jn. 6:37

Jesus says that of that day and hour no man knows, but we will know the season........if we are watching the changes. I am a postie and would never say I could calculate His coming. I can't, nor can anyone---- and all who have tried in the past were wrong.

Paul teaches the saints that they are to "rest" with the rest of the saints(II Thess. 1:6-10).......knowing that judgment upon the wicked IS COMING as well as the promise of Jesus' coming in Glory to be admired by His saints and glorified in them (us)..........notice the timing of this: When the angels take vengeance on them that do not know God or obey Him. This happens when Jesus returns with His Holy Angels----at the Second Coming. When the wheat and tares will be separated.......the wheat is gathered into his "barn".........the chaff is burned up (Mt. 3:12)........ Blessings. :-)


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Cindy

 2007/3/17 1:17Profile





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