El Paso, Texas
| Modest swimwear vs. A Modest Heart|
Well, let me start out by saying that I read the other topic on modest swimwear, but I didn't have anything to comment on. After I meditated for a while on the subject I came up with a discussion that I would like to hear everyone's opinions on.
Ok, let me also state that I do believe that modesty is very important in any kind of clothing. But the topic I want to bring up is this:
[b]How many of you believe that by having someone dress more modestly, it will somehow stop men from thinking the same way?[/b]
I have thought about this topic many times, and have done a little research and have found some interesting facts about it.
I found that in countries like Israel, or other foreign nations where all of the clothing issues are written into law, they will often times have the women cover everything from head to toe, and also wear a veil.
But what is more interesting than their dress, is that they are able to communikate simply with their eyes whether they are a modest or an imodest person, not by code mind you, but the people can just pick up on it. So you walk down the street, and simply by looking into a womans eyes their, you can tell whether they are a prostitute, or a woman of purity.
I also found that many of the women pride themselves on being able to seduce men simply by looking at them, and they can cause a man to think the same things as our men think, when they see imodesty.
[b]So then my real question is, at what point does the issue of modesty become irrelevant in comparison with having a pure heart?[/b]
Let me clarify again, that I think women, and men should both dress modestly. But I see in other parts of the world where they have tried to regulate modesty by taking it to the extreme, and it hasn't worked.
[b][color=000099]I submit to you that if you try to have a modest person, and they don't have a modest heart, or a pure heart, it would almost be a waste of time to cover them up, because what is in their heart will surely be made manifest in every way it can. And the clothing will not stop it either for that person, or the person of whom it affects.[/color][/b]
| 2007/3/7 10:53||Profile|
| Re: Modest swimwear vs. A Modest Heart|
To the pure all things are pure. If our hearts are right before God, then everything we look at--even the greatest source of temptation--will be just another thing, and will have no power over us. Because then Christ lives us and He cannot be tempted in any way. We have His power in us to overcome the flesh.
The issue, however, is that many of us, including me, or even the Apostle Paul (in Phil. 3:12), have not attained to such perfection or maturity yet. We fight against the flesh day and night: the Spirit warring against the flesh. And while our warfare is not carnal, it will be to our advantage if any potential source of temptation is reduced. Paul Himself asks us to meditate on things that are good and noble and pure (Phil. 4:8).
You are right that our heart is the source of all uncleanness and deceitful above all things, and if this is not dealt with, any other method to "keep our way pure" will fail. Therefore, we need our heart washed clean first in the blood of Christ. However, we should not also make provision for the flesh, and we should not cause our brother or sister to stumble.
P.S. The first thing that stood out to me when initially reading your post was the expression "discussion that I would like to hear everyone's opinions on." Brother, we have a great Teacher in the Holy Spirit, and we should seek Him first and foremost on every matter. The Lord says in Jeremiah:
"But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [i]No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD.[/i] For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more" (Jer. 31:33-34).
Even I was tempted to show you "how much I know" and "how able I am to handle the word of truth" (a root of pride), so I rushed to respond to your question. Instead, we all should be quick to seek first God on this matter and not the opinions of men, even if they be Christians. I don't know if this was your intention in any way. Personally, I am put off by the word "opinion." There is too much of "self" in it and too little of "God."
I have a question for you, too, brother: What urged you to bring this subject up? Who was it for?
Peace be with you,
| 2007/3/7 12:18|
El Paso, Texas
Mostly it was for myself in some way I guess, I have heard the topic discussed about modesty so many times, but this issue is rarely brought up. I wanted to see if this was the heart behind the argument for modesty, or if the issue had even been considered.
| 2007/3/7 13:00||Profile|
| Re: Modest swimwear vs. A Modest Heart|
You raise an interesting point. I listened to a David Wilkerson message where he chides the listeners about trying to associate holiness by mere outward manifestations. Holiness is, after all, a condition of the heart. An old saying goes, "[i]You can take a person out of the world, but it is much more important to take the world out of the person[/i]."
This world is literally filled with blatant displays of sensuality and immodesty. They are everywhere -- from the Wal-Mart, to the grocery store, to the schools, to the billboards, etc... If our hearts are not right -- it would be extremely easy to be caught into the sin of lust.
But it is also quite important to not willingly be a participant in such displays. This creates a difficulty -- because definitions of "modesty" vary from person to person, belief to belief, or local church to local church. I personally feel at ease wearing jeans and even modest shorts. Yet I know some individuals who would point a condemning finger at me for such attire. At the same time, I am quite the modest person. I literally PRAY about my clothing. I do not allow my clothing to be dictated by either the "standards" or "fashions" of this world nor the "standards" or "fashions" set up by other believers.
I feel that the key is to walk humbly and honestly before the Lord. We need to dress (and LIVE) in a manner in which we feel that we will not be embarrassed at the Judgment (or when we see our wonderful Lord's face for the first time).
So the next time that you are chided by modern believers for wearing "too modest" clothing, or the next time that you are criticized by certain believers for wearing jeans or Nikes -- remember that your entire life is meant to be pleasing to CHRIST -- and not the world or the Church. Strive to walk before God with a clean conscience and a heart of integrity.
[url=http://www.lastdaysministries.org/articles/uncoveringthetruthaboutmodesty.html]Click here[/url] to read a great article about modesty from Keith and Melody Green.
[size=9]"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works." - I Timothy 2:9-10[/size]
[size=9]"Whose adorning let it not be that outward adorning of plaiting the hair, and of wearing of gold, or of putting on of apparel; But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
." - I Peter 3:3-4[/size]
| 2007/3/7 13:02||Profile|
| Re: Modest swimwear vs. A Modest Heart|
How many of you believe that by having someone dress more modestly, it will somehow stop men from thinking the same way?
It won't. Mark 7:21: "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,..."
So then my real question is, at what point does the issue of modesty become irrelevant in comparison with having a pure heart?
Does it? Would you rather people walk around naked just because they are not modest in heart? Where is the sense of decency? Even moral man without Christ has some sense of decency. You mentioned the Muslims..where do they get their idea of modesty from?
Let's frame your question another way: Just because I do not have the conviction against stealing, would it be ok if someone would just come to yur house and carry off whatever he wishes? After all, not stealing will not make him holy and since he is not right with God anyways, why would it matter?
Do you not think the Scriptures inform us that a pure heart will then be obedient to the Word in areas that deal with attire? Man has their own ideas of what is proper attire....Adam and Eve made coats of leaves. God said that was not good enough, so he killed an animal and made coats out of their skin to dress them.
(Think about this for a moment: God killed an animal and took its skin and made coats out of it and made these two people wear it. This animal was a tame one, likely one they had loved and petted. Can you imagine wearing a garment made from a beloved pet? How would that feel like? Somehow this entire idea totally repulses me and I would guess it would have done no less to Adam and Eve. But they wore it anyways...God did not ask them whether they wanted to, it says he clothed them. More lessons here, but I will leave it at the moment.)
I submit to you that if you try to have a modest person, and they don't have a modest heart, or a pure heart, it would almost be a waste of time to cover them up, because what is in their heart will surely be made manifest in every way it can. And the clothing will not stop it either for that person, or the person of whom it affects.
It is true that being modest will not make a heart pure. But there are there are young boys, young girls who will be tempted to lust at too early an age..you must protect their innocent minds. So we dress for others, for their sake...even it it will not benefit one eternally.
Dressing modestly will not give one a sure ticket to heaven but dressing immodestly will tell the world where you definately are going and who the god is you are serving.
| 2007/3/7 18:18||Profile|
| Re: Modesty in heart v modesty in swimwear|
For myself clothing, jewellry, make-up, hair etc is between the Lord and myself. He convicted me of this area of my life many years ago, and I don't believe people can really understand it unless they have had that conviction. Nor do I expect them to - for I have seen many who follow these things as a law, or because the rest of the assembly does it!
That does not mean a thing - you have to have everything else to go with it or it becomes a joke. The best testimony is your way of life - this includes every facet. People are always watching you if you are a professing Christian.
What is inside man will be revealed openly. A good heart will shine out, love will be manifest, faith will not be hidden, holiness will be proven from one's life.
I know this is out of context for this topic:
15There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.
Ann - but everyone calls me Joy
| 2007/3/7 18:59||Profile|
But it is also quite important to not willingly be a participant in such displays. This creates a difficulty -- because definitions of "modesty" vary from person to person, belief to belief, or local church to local church. I personally feel at ease wearing jeans and even modest shorts. Yet I know some individuals who would point a condemning finger at me for such attire. At the same time, I am quite the modest person. [b]I literally PRAY about my clothing.[/b] I do not allow my clothing to be dictated by either the "standards" or "fashions" of this world nor the "standards" or "fashions" set up by other believers.
[b]I feel that the key is to walk humbly and honestly before the Lord. We need to dress (and LIVE) in a manner in which we feel that we will not be embarrassed at the Judgment (or when we see our wonderful Lord's face for the first time).[/b]
Brother Chris I appreciate what you had to share here...that will be a wonderful day when we see our Lord for the first time!
I think that out of our close walk with the Lord will come modesty and carefulness in what we wear.
[i]"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." Mark 12:29-31[/i]
If we ladies love our neighbors, both Believers and unbelievers (every unbeliever could possibly be your brother or sister in Christ one day) we will try not to lay stumbling blocks in front of them.
[i]"Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brothers way." Romans 14:13[/i]
I also came upon this verse as I was looking up the first one and it seems to fit in also:
[i]"He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him." 1 John 2:10[/i]
I once heard this definition for defrauding: "To defraud is to raise passions or desires in another person that I cannot righteously fulfill at this time."
In light of that here is this passage:
[i]"That no man go beyond and defraud his brother in any matter: because that the Lord is the avenger of all such, as we also have forewarned you and testified." 1 Thess. 4:6[/i]
If anyone is looking for resources to study this topic I HIGHLY recommend Nancy Leigh DeMoss's [url=http://www.reviveourhearts.com/radio/roh/today.php?pid=971]Series on Modesty. She has a couple different resources on her website.[/url]
Note, I am writing this from a woman's perspective in relation to the women's side of the issue here. :-)
| 2007/3/7 20:23|
At one point Jesus exhorted the lawyers of the time to keep "both" the inner and outer laws.
Also if an unsaved person conducts themselves in a self "controlled" way we can see that it does benifit society vs the unsaved acting in an "uncontrolled" way.
So what am I trying to say? Do both inner and outer because thats what Jesus commanded.
I know that this will be worked over just like music or tattooing etc etc. oh well... haven't posted in a while so I thought I would just add a bit.
God bless and follow the Lord!!Amen
| 2007/3/7 21:15|
| Re: Modest swimwear vs. A Modest Heart|
I really will take some thought into what your saying.
| 2007/3/7 23:46||Profile|