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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
If God has done everything He can to save man, but ultimately the choice is up to man to decide, then why pray to God to save people? Why not resort to anything that will get man to "make a decision for Christ"?



Excellent point!

Ben if you position is true, why do we pray for God to save a person? Why do we ask God to 'break down any and all barriers' (heard many arminians pray that). If God has done everything He can and the salvation simply rests in the decision of man, then we don't we pray as follows:

"Lord my friend is not saved. I don't know why I am telling you about it because you are powerless at this point--seeing as how you have done all you can. I guess I am just asking you to help me not be anxious about it. I pray that you would send people to my friend to tell him more about you, but I understand that even if people told him day after day, his salvation solely rests on whether or not he is smart enough, wise enough, and intelligent enough to make his choice."

Nobody prays that way! And that is the point.

Also, as roaringlamb said, why don't we do whatever it takes to get someone to make the decision? I believe this is the reason why so many people are false converts. We have limited the gospel to 3 or 4 points. Then we declare that all who intellectually understand these are Christians.

 2007/3/9 13:09Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ben, I say this in all due respect to you. I love you as a brother in Christ and I have no doubt that you love and honor God.

But you spent an entire post telling me why you don't agree with the answer to my questions and then in your post you agreed with my answers.

I wrote:

Quote:
Question 1:
Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?



[The response I gathered from your words]
Quote:
Yes. God has the ability to save all men but chooses not to because he wants genuine love. Therefore God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.



You say that this answer is not fair because you don’t believe the answer.
Then you say,
Quote:
God placed certain laws in balance, just like He made it so that if we sin we die, He also made free will, God has chosen out of wisdom not to overide a man's will, He created it so that it could not be done.



Whether you want to admit it or not, you have just stated that God has the ability to save all men but “God has chosen out of wisdom not to override a man’s will. He created it so that it could not be done.” Do you see that? God has the ability to override free will and save man but he chooses not to.

Next question:

Quote:
Question 2:
Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?



[The response I gathered from your words]
Quote:
No. God was not forced to do this. He could have created a world where everyone went to heaven and no one went to hell but he chose not to. God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.



You say that this answer is not fair because you don’t believe the answer.
Then you say,
Quote:
God has already given us all things, but He desires an action on our part. Without us giving that action of belief, we cannot receive our inheritance. Man's free will prevents God in no way from saving man, but it does prevent Him from giving us our inheritance.



Once again, whether you want to admit it or not, you have just stated that God does not have the ability to bring people into heaven because of man’s Free Will. You say that God has the ability to save men but that salvation is dependent upon Free Will, in other words, God cannot apply the effects of salvation to all men because of Free Will.

I must admit that I agree with you that a man must have faith in order to receive the salvation, but I disagree in that man can thwart God from giving salvation to those whose sins have been atoned for. My position is that faith comes as a response to God’s saving grace and eternal life is given “to all whom you have given [the Son]”. (John 17:2).

 2007/3/9 13:30Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Advise on a verse / Ben Williams

Ben, you have been very clear, and blessedly, covered the topic well while remaining reasonably short on your post.

I am so glad to hear what I think expressed so excellantly. Having 'thunked it', I'd like to take credit, but it's all yours! 8-)

Many Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/10 0:40Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Advice on a verse

Excellant choice of verses. Jeff. Which version of the Bible did you use?

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/10 0:46Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Advice on a verse

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
If God is willing to save "all", but cannot save "all", the He must not be Almighty for there is something that is more powerful than Him, that being the free will of man. Thus free will becomes diefied and we are left with an impotent god who really really would like to save all men, but cannot because the created thing has usurped the power of the Creator.




Oh, please not this interpretation! God has the power to do anything. The point of this verse is that God 'cannot' do certain things without breaking His own laws, which He will not do.

Why do you think God went through several Covenants, setting up the types of Jesus's sacrifice, and the precedent of the Kinsman Redeemer!


Quote:
Brother Ben could I take Romans 8:28 and give it to an unbeliever to comfort them? Of course not, because it is not written to the unbeliever, but rather the Saint who is in Christ. Thus we must factor in the audience to which the Epistle is addressed as Jay has done a wonderful job of doing.



Not if you place it back in context, and read from the point of view of the entire Bible.

24. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
25. But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.
26. Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he (JESUS) maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. (HE WOULDN'T BOTHER IF INTERCESSION DIDN'T WORK!)
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. (AND ALL MEN ARE CALLED. NOT ALL MEN AGREE.)
29. For whom he did foreknow,(GOD FOREKNOWS EVERYTHING, AND PREDESTINATION IS KNOWLEDGE OF AN END RESULT, NOT THE CREATION OF IT!) he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (JESUS BEING THE FIRST OF THE END RESULT, AND THUS THE FIRST FRUITS)
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?


It is always a mistake to read even a whole chapter of the Bible without considering the whole of the Bible. In it we have the History of God continuously trying to persuade those whom He calls to obey, that they might be blessed, and have eternal life.


Quote:
There is much danger in thinking that man somehow is more powerful than God. Arminian theology has opened the door for many of the problems we have today. The idea that there is any good in man has led to much of the new age teachings that god is in all of us, it has led to universal ideas that we are all God's children, it has opened the door to universalism and many self centered pursuits of religious experience.



In this I agree. Only those who are God's children, elect, chosen, are His children by faith, whether it be in the ages before Christ, or the ages since, and through Christ.

Quote:
If we would simply start at the first point Total Inability which declares that man is dead in sin, and can do nothing but sin we might begin to see things differently. I fear that we have made too little of sin, and have thus made too little of a Saviour, and now we are reaping the reprecussions.



Yes, but God does make us ready, giving us the hearing of the word that we might have faith, slowly preparing our understanding for the question, 'Will it be Yes, or No?" And remember that all the angels in heaven rejoice when just one of us says 'Yes'! It's that big a deal!

Quote:
P.S. This is coming from one who used to be the Arminian of Arminians, so please take that into consideration. I did not arrive at these conclusions from any book other than the Scriptures. Then I read other works to see if what I was sensing was true throughout Historical Christian Doctrine.



Understandable, but we all must go to the whole Bible, not just part of it for our answers. Neither Calvinists nor Arminians look at the whole of the Bible, but focus in too tightly on verses that suit their beliefs.

God Bless,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/10 1:24Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Atoned for but Hell Bound



Christ die for everyone - EVERYONE! But not all are willing to let God take over their lives, even long enough to say yes. The rest of us manage submission bit by bit, day by day, and Jesus makes up for our inability. But at least He know we love, trust, adore, and worship Him. You won't find anyone like that in hell.

Blessings,


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/10 1:43Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi as I started this thread I thought I'd say how I read the replies..

I dislike Calvinisms immensely,but that doesn't mean its wrong hehe..
But as much as I dislike it of the two options, it strikes me it makes sense, if God is Sovereign..

Psa 69:25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
Psa 109:8 Let his days be few; and let another take his office

we read later in Judas this prophecy comes true

Act 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
Act 1:19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
Act 1:16 Men and brethren, this Scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas..

So the OT shows us that someone had to fulfill this prophecy,if not Judas then someone...Whoever that was,salvation wasn't on offer for them i.e not elect
aj


_________________
andy

 2007/3/11 12:12Profile









 Re:

Calvinism is outdated. The New Testement election were of the remnant Jews who were being saved, from Pentecost to 70AD. "For whom He forknew (the Jews) He predestinated them to be conformed to the image of His son".

To the gentile it's "to whomsoever will". To the Jew (Jew of the bible), it's by election.

Oh boy, what did I just start? :-P

 2007/3/11 14:54









 Re: advice on a verse

Compliments said

Quote:
Oh boy, what did I just start? :-P

Oh boy, you just started a ray of light in my mind. THANK YOU SO MUCH!

However, there is still and element of being called out of the world - out of being Jewish - and into a definite separateness - which not all Jews embraced..... clearly. :-o

 2007/3/11 16:14
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Forest asked:

Quote:
Which version of the Bible did you use?



I pulled it off the Blue Letter Bible site...King James.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/11 16:33Profile





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