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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Jaysaved wrote:

Quote:
Come on now you cannot avoid the questions. Either God has the ability to save and doesn't or he does not have the ability.



This is not really the question that is present in Scripture. Rather Scripture says...

Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:
21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],
22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

God's Spirit cries out to all men. His Spirit is all around us. All men are given witness of the Godhead...

Scripture clearly points to the fact that God gives man a choice based on what the Spirit witnesses to man...


Pro 1:24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;
25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:
26 I also will laugh at your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27 When your fear cometh as desolation, and your destruction cometh as a whirlwind; when distress and anguish cometh upon you.
28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.
:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.
32 For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them.


If you read these words carefully you will recognize where Paul received wisdom from God through the Holy Spirit to write of the things found in Romans chapter 1.

And what does Scripture say of those who choose to hear?

Pro 1:33 But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell safely, and shall be quiet from fear of evil.

God truly cannot lie...He truly wishes that all would come to repentance and as provision for that truth He gives His Holy Spirit as counsel. It is not His fault that most men rebel.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/7 22:04Profile
pastorfrin
Member



Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

JaySaved wrote:

Quote:
How can God atone for all men's sins and yet punish man for the sin of unbelief? Did Jesus not atone for all sins?



May I attempt to answer your question?
Lets say I bought a ticket to go watch your favorite sports team. The ticket is bought and paid for and I offer it to you, you refuse to
accept the free gift and so you do not enter to
watch the game. Who is at fault that you did not
watch the game? It was my will for you to go or I would not have offered you the ticket. You chose not to accept my will so the fault would
lie with you.
Rev. 22:17
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

God will punish man for the sin of unbelief for
the same reason it is your fault for not accepting the ticket. If a man refuses the conviction of the Holy Spirit and refuses the
gift of eternal life, it is blasphemy against
the Holy spirit and that sin was not attoned for.
Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.


May we all be doers and not hearers only,

pastorfrin

 2007/3/7 22:17Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Thank you for your responses I appreciate them, but no one so far has answered the questions. Basically you are telling me that man is held responsible for his unbelief. I agree.

But that does not answer the two questions:

Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?

or

Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?

Ben told me neither.
rookie and pastorfrin told me that God holds men accountable for unbelief.

All I am asking is for someone to tell me that God either has the ability to save all men and chooses not to save all men because of His respect for free will or He does not have the ability to save all men because of free will.

 2007/3/8 10:02Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
All I am asking is for someone to tell me that God either has the ability to save all men and chooses not to save all men because of His respect for free will or He does not have the ability to save all men because of free will.



When you look for an answer to something that is unscriptural on either count, you will have a hard time getting a doctrinally sound answer.

[b]God atoned for all men's sins, and then requires them to believe that he has done so. If they will not believe, than they will not be saved. He does not do so for the respect of man's will, he does it to receive genuine love.[/b]

To assume that the only reason he would do it is for respect, [b]is to deny God of His infinite attribute of love, which is the motivation for every action He takes.[/b]Rather, we are to interpret God's actions by that very thing, as the purpose behind why He would do any given thing.

For what it is worth, Christ is the saviour of all mankind. (according to scripture.)


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/8 14:02Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
God atoned for all men's sins, and then requires them to believe that he has done so.



You said God requires them to believe, did God choose to do it this way? or is God forced to do it this way?

 2007/3/8 14:50Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
You said God requires them to believe, did God choose to do it this way? or is God forced to do it this way?



God chose to allow men the opportunity to receive grace by believing. So that it would create genuine love.

God was not forced to do this, He could just have easily created a world without free will, and filled it with angels. But His divine motivation of love played a major part in His choosing of men who would in turn have to make decisions just like He does.

Thus part of the fulfilment of "making man in our image". It is not just an outward thing, God made man to be internally like Him, so that we could reason, and fellowship with Him just as Adam did. Only greater because we have the Spirit of God within us now, which they did not.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/9 10:44Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
God chose to allow men the opportunity to receive grace by believing. So that it would create genuine love.

God was not forced to do this, He could just have easily created a world without free will, and filled it with angels. But His divine motivation of love played a major part in His choosing of men who would in turn have to make decisions just like He does.


(Emphasis Mine)

So I can take your answer above and apply it to my questions as follows:

Question 1:
Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?
Yes. God has the ability to save all men but chooses not to because he wants genuine love. Therefore God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

Question 2:
Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?
No. God was not forced to do this. He could have created a world where everyone went to heaven and no one went to hell but he chose not to. God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.

Is this a fair answer to my questions?

 2007/3/9 10:58Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Jay Wrote:

Quote:
Is this a fair answer to my questions?



Well Jay, let me answer each question individually, neither answer is fair to me, because I don't believe either answer to be true according to scripture. So here goes:

Quote:
Question 1:[b]Does God have the ability to save all men but chooses not to because of his respect for man's Free Will?[/b]
Yes. God has the ability to save all men but chooses not to because he wants genuine love. Therefore God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.



The answer to this question is no. The reason it is no, is because it is a double question, the first part cancels the second part, and vice versa.

God did save all men, as we read here:

[b][color=CC0000]I John 4:14

And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.[/color][/b]

[b][color=CC0000]I John 2:2

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/color][/b]

God then says to man, I have bought you with my son's life, believe it and live, refuse it and die.

God placed certain laws in balance, just like He made it so that if we sin we die, He also made free will, God has chosen out of wisdom not to overide a man's will, He created it so that it could not be done.

It is not an issue of "does God choose not to save man?" because He already has saved man, in so doing, we are indebted to Him, so God says to us, believe in me, it is a free gift that I paid for. If we choose not to believe in Him, then we will not be allowed into the kingdom of God.

As John said, the propitiation for every man's sin has been paid, if that one statement alone is true, then we must believe that either every man will be in heaven, or every man must make a choice to believe. Jesus countlessly holds nations and individuals accountable for not believing. Belief is the standard that God set for salvation to be received by man.


Quote:
Question 2:[b]Does God not have the ability to save all men because of man's Free Will?[/b]
No. God was not forced to do this. He could have created a world where everyone went to heaven and no one went to hell but he chose not to. God could have saved all men but chose not to do so.



This question also cancels itself out just as the first one. First of all, man had nothing to do with God sending His son to die, and be the propitiation for the sins of the whole world. God chose to be the saviour of all mankind, past and present, and then to give eternal life only to those who believed.

We are told that Abraham "believed" God and it was counted unto him for righteousness. So as it was even to those looking forward to the promise of salvation, it is the same to us now who are looking back at the promise of salvation. We must choose to believe God, even as Abraham did, or we will be counted out of our inheritance.

God has already given us all things, but He desires an action on our part. Without us giving that action of belief, we cannot receive our inheritance. Man's free will prevents God in no way from saving man, but it does prevent Him from giving us our inheritance.

That does not make free will more powerful than God, because God created free will. Man's unbelief did not stop God from sending His son to die.

It's sort of like this, if you or I were to play a grandmaster in chess, say Gary Kasperov, do you honestly believe that your choice or mine would prevent him from checkmating us? At that point we would have the choice of throwing the board off the table and refusing to accept the truth. Or we could accept what Gary did. It is the same with salvation, God checkmated man by offering Him everything possible, and man is sitting there deciding whether he will accept what God did for him, or throw the board on the table.

I hope I explained well enough why neither question or their answer were fair. But I hope that from these answers, the Lord will show us both insight into Him.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/9 12:19Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ben,

Is there a person in hell who has had their sins atoned for by Jesus?

 2007/3/9 12:42Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Ben I must ask you a question,
If God has done everything He can to save man, but ultimately the choice is up to man to decide, then why pray to God to save people? Why not resort to anything that will get man to "make a decision fo Christ"?

Also why is it that you have no problem saying God is sovereign over your health, finances, etc but suddenly He becomes un-sovereign in the realm of salvation?

If God is omniscient, and did not know one thing He would not be omniscient right?
If God is omnipotent, and is limited in any way, He is not omnipotent right?

It seems that many today have made an idol in a sense. They would like the God of Calvinism when it comes to their lives because He is in control of all things, and is watching out for them. But when it comes to salvation they want an Arminian god who allows man free-will to decide on Christ when it is convenient for him to do so.

Do you see the lack of logic, and the sheer contradiction of God's character if you say He is all powerful until it comes to salvation?

Quote:
I John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



This does not mean the whole world as in the totality of mankind. John was showing the Jews he was writing to that salvation was not just to them. It is similar to when Scripture says, "all Judaea went after him." We know that all Judaea did not go after Christ or all the Scribes and Pharisees would have gone after him as well.

So we have to reckon on the fact that God is the potter who has complete and utter control over His creation. He can form a vessel to dishonour if he feels like it can He not? Pharaoh is a perfect example of this, as are all of the people who were destroyed by the flood, by the wars with Israel.



_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/3/9 12:42Profile





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