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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
To be very technical, the law was given only to the Jews.

So anyone who is a gentile is not under the law that was given to the Jews.

However, Christ is the fulfillment of the law, therefore everyone is under the law of Christ, to receive Him. If they do not, then they will be judged upon that basis.



Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Does this command of God not pretain to all in each generation?


In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/12 1:59Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

rookie Wrote:

Quote:
Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Does this command of God not pretain to all in each generation?



The words and commandments of Christ have meaning to everyone, everywhere. But we are discussing the law, which was given only to the Jews. As I said before, everyone is under the law of Christ, as he is the fulfillment of the law.

He made it so that anyone could be saved, and by doing so, we are now under His government and His law. To perform whatever it is that He tells us to.

And by receiving Him, and believing in Him, we also are made partakers of this fulfillment of the law. We ourselves are dead, but we live in His life, which is the fulfillment of the law.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/4/12 11:23Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
The words and commandments of Christ have meaning to everyone, everywhere. But we are discussing the law, which was given only to the Jews. As I said before, everyone is under the law of Christ, as he is the fulfillment of the law.



I am sorry, you misunderstood me. I am saying that the law that is spiritual, the law that Paul speaks of in Romans 7, can be summed up in the words of what Jesus told the scribe who also was speaking of the law...here is another example...

Luke 10:25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”

Luke 10:26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?”

Luke 10:27 So he answered and said, ““You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and ‘your neighbor as yourself.’ ”

Luke 10:28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”


Please remember that the law that was given on Mount Sinai was given as a means to lead one to Christ...

In just the first 4 chapters of Leviticus, we find how God desires man to worship Him in the burnt offerings.

Listen to how this scribe understood the burnt offering...

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/13 0:56Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

The Law did not lead us to Christ but to the NEED of Christ for an exceeding sinful person that I was. The Law made sin exceeding sinful and the need of a Savior.

Romans 7:12-14 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/4/13 1:46Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
The Law did not lead us to Christ but to the NEED of Christ for an exceeding sinful person that I was. The Law made sin exceeding sinful and the need of a Savior.



Gal 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Paul wrote that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.

The scribe understood that the burnt offerings were meant to teach one that he must love God and man.

This is the essence of the law...

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

This man understood what the law required...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/13 2:35Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Sin & Spirituality

Quote:

BenWilliams wrote:
The words and commandments of Christ have meaning to everyone, everywhere. But we are discussing the law, which was given only to the Jews. As I said before, everyone is under the law of Christ, as he is the fulfillment of the law.

He made it so that anyone could be saved, and by doing so, we are now under His government and His law. To perform whatever it is that He tells us to.

And by receiving Him, and believing in Him, we also are made partakers of this fulfillment of the law. We ourselves are dead, but we live in His life, which is the fulfillment of the law.



Ben,

Your study of Roman's so far has been deeply felt by me, so much so, that I have a question, and although I use the words above as my starting point, I need some clarification overall of Paul's meaning in all of Roman's.

In all of the commentaries on Romans that I have read, and the teaching I have had, gives me the overall impression that although we are dead to sin, yet our bodies, including our minds, habits, reactions, coerce us to be sinning even when we don't want to, and that only by Chist's atonement for all our sins, past, present, and future, are we considered righteous through Him.

Thus, in God's sight, we are clean if we are in Christ, no matter how badly we follow Him if we genuinely seek to stay alive in Him, but in our own eyes, we still see ourselves as sinning, and without the power to stop. Also, Paul made it very plain that the righteousness in Christ that saves us gives us grace, but we are not to abuse that grace by seeking to sin.

Now my question based on my understanding of what you have written, and what I have read and studied:

Does grace through our righteousness in Christ cover what our 'dead' body/mind/carnal person does, even without further repentence in the spiritual person we are in Christ?

In Christ,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/13 2:41Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Webrev Wrote:

Quote:
Your study of Roman's so far has been deeply felt by me, so much so, that I have a question, and although I use the words above as my starting point, I need some clarification overall of Paul's meaning in all of Roman's.

In all of the commentaries on Romans that I have read, and the teaching I have had, gives me the overall impression that although we are dead to sin, yet our bodies, including our minds, habits, reactions, coerce us to be sinning even when we don't want to, and that only by Chist's atonement for all our sins, past, present, and future, are we considered righteous through Him.

Thus, in God's sight, we are clean if we are in Christ, no matter how badly we follow Him if we genuinely seek to stay alive in Him, but in our own eyes, we still see ourselves as sinning, and without the power to stop. Also, Paul made it very plain that the righteousness in Christ that saves us gives us grace, but we are not to abuse that grace by seeking to sin.

Now my question based on my understanding of what you have written, and what I have read and studied:

Does grace through our righteousness in Christ cover what our 'dead' body/mind/carnal person does, even without further repentence in the spiritual person we are in Christ?




I believe Paul answers this question in Romans, allow me to attempt a good explanation.

Pauls says that when Christ died, he put to death the flesh, and all of the works of the flesh. We know that the flesh cannot be subject to God because it is wicked completely. That is why Christ put it to death. Notice that the flesh being put to death is a past tense situation, it has already happened.

Knowing that our flesh and it's works were put to death, how can we continue repenting for something that was dealt with once for all?

Let me put it this way, if you have an uncle that robbed a bank, and then he was sent to the electric chair, and executed for it, can you be held responsible for anything that that uncle did while he was alive?

Of course not, no one would or could legally hold you responsible for what a dead part of your ancestory did.

The bank is not going to require you to pay what he owed, because he is dead, so the debt is legally settled.

So what are you repenting of if your flesh sins? Are you repenting of something that has been repented of already at salvation? Why would you continue to repent about something that you are already forgiven for?

What it really comes down to is this, what do you believe Christ forgave you of? Did he forgive only what you did before you were saved? Or did He forgive every sin, past present and future?

Now having said that, not only did he forgive those sins, but He also put them to death when He condemned sin in the flesh.
--------------------------------------------------

Now, having said all that, we are taught through the scriptures that we are to avoid sin. To not partake in it, why? Because it draws us away from God, so we excercise our spirit, and we do not partake in what is sin done by our flesh. This is what sanctification is all about.

One thing that many people fail to realize is that Paul was blameless according to the law, and when he was saved, he did not suddenly start doing things contrary to the disciplines he had practiced his whole life.

So when he talks about doing the things he doesn't want to do, I believe he is referring to his thoughts, and that desire to do evil.

Sorry to be long winded, but there is so much confusion on these issues that they have become difficult to explain.

Very simply, sin has been forgiven, and put to death, so do we need forgiveness again or not?

If sin is dead, is it alive?

If forgiveness for all things has been given, is it not good enough to forgive all things the first time?

Is it partial, or full?


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/4/13 16:11Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ben, do you repent of your sins?

 2007/4/13 16:29Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Sin & Repentence

I Wrote:

Your study of Roman's so far has been deeply felt by me, so much so, that I have a question, and although I use the words above as my starting point, I need some clarification overall of Paul's meaning in all of Roman's....

Does grace through our righteousness in Christ cover what our 'dead' body/mind/carnal person does, even without further repentence in the spiritual person we are in Christ?

Ben Williams said:

I believe Paul answers this question in Romans, allow me to attempt a good explanation...So what are you repenting of if your flesh sins? Are you repenting of something that has been repented of already at salvation? Why would you continue to repent about something that you are already forgiven for?

What it really comes down to is this, what do you believe Christ forgave you of? Did he forgive only what you did before you were saved? Or did He forgive every sin, past present and future?

Now having said that, not only did he forgive those sins, but He also put them to death when He condemned sin in the flesh.
--------------------------------------------------
Very simply, sin has been forgiven, and put to death, so do we need forgiveness again or not?

If sin is dead, is it alive?

If forgiveness for all things has been given, is it not good enough to forgive all things the first time?

Is it partial, or full?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Ben, when the Holy Spirit convicts me of sin, I always do apologize to God, and ask for help to go the right way. This leaves me feeling clean, but my question was really not for me, but for my newly saved father, a babe in Christ at 82, Praise God!

Because he is my father, and I am not his pastor, and he will not go to church - hates the inbuilt hypocrisy he saw as a youngster when he was baptized, but never really came to know Christ - I have been watching the Holy Spirit teaching my Dad, and it is fascinating to watch.

I would not dare to intrude on his privacy to ask him if he ever feels convicted of sin, and if so, what does he do about it. I am his daughter, and although not being under his authority, he also cannot be under mine, either as father or as a man.

I don't preach to my Dad. If he reads my site, that is his business, and I pray explains things he doesn't ask about. When he is concerned about something, he does ask, and I answer.

After a year or so of knowing that he had "said the prayer" as he put it, he has become more open with me, and we shared communion for the first time at Easter dinner. But frankly, I do not want to place any burden on him that the Holy Spirit does not, yet as his Evangelist daughter, I cannot help but worry over his progress.

I am grateful merely that the Lord answered my prayers to call my dad; that my dad told me of his conversion, which answered another of my prayers; and now, that if I will say the words of communion at Easter (and hopefully more often in future), my Dad is willing to amen them.

He is so untaught and unseeking that he doesn't even know the bible stories, nor will he yet read the Bible, but I have turned him over to God now that I know that he is safe, and that the Holy Spirit will tell him what he must do, through me, or the Bible.

My prediliction for asking God to forgive me each morning of the sins I feel are impeding my progress, before I take communion, because I want to feel as clean as possible before my morning devotions and communion, are simply what I feel led to do.

It's not a feeling of guilt. Guilt feelings are a lie of the devil. But conviction by the Holy Spirit that I am doing wrong...that seems to ask for repentence.

But just as I don't test the Lord on purpose if I can help it, I don't want to lead, even by example, my dad, or anyone else, to anything that is not ordained of God.

I draw your attention, therefore, to the following quotes, and ask your opinion:

[color=CC0000]1 John 2

1. My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
3. And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6. He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
7. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.
8. Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9. He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10. He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11. But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.
12. I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
13. I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
14. I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
15. Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.
18. Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
20. But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21. I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.
22. Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
24. Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
25. And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26. These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27. But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28. And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.
29. If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
[/color]

You have said that we are dead to sin. Yet if we sin, and the Holy Spirit presses us to deal with a matter of a sin, particularly of holiness of the mind, should we not repent?

Jesus in Revelation 3:7-13 seems to be telling us to press on, strive on, in the faith. Is this not speaking of repentence? Is faith not the fruit of repentence?

[color=CC0000]Revelation 3:7. And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8. I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10. Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11. Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

Now, please be aware that I am not just worried about salvation, but victory in life. Yet John and Jesus in Revelation to John seem to imply that ever striving onward is part of our growth in Jesus. I do know that my father cannot be Laodicean. He's too young in Christ to even know what that means, and as a babe in Christ, I know he is safe for salvation, at least for the time being.

I worry about the rapture, which seems to be a special gift for those that watch and pray to be worthy of being caught away, which worthiness and righteousness is only through Christ.

My concern is that lack of repentence is Laodicean.

Will you give me your opinion based on these contexts?

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/4/14 8:22Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote:

"""
Gal 3

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Paul wrote that the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ.

The scribe understood that the burnt offerings were meant to teach one that he must love God and man.

This is the essence of the law...

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one. 30 And you shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. 31 And the second, like it, is this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

Mark 12:32 So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. 33 And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one’s neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.”

This man understood what the law required...

In Christ
Jeff"""


This man could not do it either. Christ is the only One that did it and it is by His life that we can do it after rebirth unto a new creature.

If "this man" could do it Christ would not have need of the suffering for "this man" on the Cross. Mark 12:38-40 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces, And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts: Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

The Law brought us to Christ if you like. But it was the conviction of the Holy Spirit of sin that gave us to believe that Jesus Christ is the Holy One of God, His Son, and we need His as our Savior. The Law made sin exceeding sinful and led by the Holy Spirit we see the need of Christ in our new birth to break the bonds of Satan and sin and death, unto a new life in Christ. It is not His life we life in. Our salvation is a Person, The whole bucket of Grace, Jesus Chrsit.

How could any man come to Christ unless the Holy Spirit convict him of sin? Romans 7:13-14 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Jhn 16:8 And when He is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

Jhn 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Hbr 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

How do we know now what is the things He wanted to say and could not? Because we have the Holy Spirit of Promise not just with us but in us forever. John 16:12-14 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

Not speaking of Himself the Holy Spirit has shown this Christ in our hearts, the wonderful mystery of "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."

Romans 7:22-25 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.


_________________
Phillip

 2007/4/14 14:33Profile





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