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Joined: 2004/11/12
Posts: 55
Charleston, SC


Citing particular bands, why would you want a Christian Youth Group to go a see Skillet play, under the guise of being their to get fired up for Christ's purposes, and listen to Corey singing about how God is "Better than drugs"? Why would you want to even put that comparison in their minds, if either they have kicked drugs, meaning that you are drawing their attention back to those days (which did have their fun moments) or they have not been exposed to drugs, where ignorance provides an element of safety for them?

First of all God is [b]Holy[/b] not to be mentioned in comparison with drugs.

Regarding scantily clad women on stage,

1Thes 5:21-22
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

Scantily clad women and Christian, biblically don't match.


Phil 4:8 says

8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.



 2007/3/6 10:11Profile

Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL


Since this topic just won't die, I'll interject again that I feel we need grace on both sides of this issue.

Col 2:6-23

So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live in him, rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority. In him you were also circumcised, in the putting off of the sinful nature, not with a circumcision done by the hands of men but with the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead.

When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code, with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross. nd having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. [b]Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.[/b] He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. [b]Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence.[/b]

Ian Smith

 2007/3/6 10:14Profile

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia



iansmith wrote:
Since this topic just won't die, I'll interject again that I feel we need grace on both sides of this issue.

There is a point in your statement that sums up my main objection to ATF type events. Two words, [b]much exertion[/b]. There seems to be an unspoken principle amongst many of the Youth movements in modern Christendom, and that is "Activity = Holiness". The kid that does the most, is most on fire for God. We run a huge event, where young people can come and jump around in a mosh pit, absorbed into the youth church culture, get them to make some pledges, and then fight like their no tomorrow to keep them "up" when they get home.

This is antithetical to the Kingdom of God. Where this type of movement aims to instill confidence in the young person, God would have us come to the end of ourselves. Where this type of movement aims to "maintain the flame" with ceaseless activity, God would have us "labour enter into (His) rest" and then when we get there "be still and know that (He is) God". There is a place of realisation that we will never be good enough, and from that place, we walk by faith (which this type of movement would have us believe means something by which we can motivate God to action, rather that an unwavering trust that He is at work, in spite of all appearances that He has "left the building").

ALl these other issues are really just circumstantial. The core issue is the apparent absence of the grace of God, which is "through faith, not of ourselves, lest any man would boast".

Aaron Ireland

 2007/3/6 12:29Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494


Ian, I have problem understanding exactly what you are saying. Are you suggesting that Christians, people who have been purchased with the BLOOD of JESUS, no longer want to listen to the devil's music? or are you saying being Christian will free one to enjoy it?

Sir, when I worked at the Crises Pregnancy Center, the Holy Spirit gave me a piece of inspiration one day: "ask my clients why they go to church?" Oh, now that sounds like an interesting question. You see, we live in the Bible Belt of the USA in which more kids grew up going to church and likely still are in church which means that most of my clients were/are professing Christians, but they were pursuing a life of immorality.

OK, so in obedience to the Holy Spirit I asked my clients, "Why do you go to church?" They all responded the same way and this was their response: They were momentarily stumped. They put their faces down for a while, and thought and thought. (And I said nothing but waited.) Soon they looked up told me it was because of the music! I say, "The music?" "Yes, I love the music!"

Brothers and sisters, what kind of music was being played there that the Holy Spirit could not use to bring conviction of sin and then repentance in the lives of these youth? It kept them was cheaper going to church then paying big bucks to attend a concert where similar music is played....and they kept right on fornicating (and then the girls either aborted or had their babies..lots of young single moms there.)

Music is a power medium for good or for bad. Revivalists in the past knew this and used it to good advantage. Was it not D.L. Moody who said the music is more powerful, more effective in winning people to the LORD then his preaching. So if we want to know whether this music is doing this, all we need to do is to check out the lifestyle of its fans. If it does not bring about repentance/obedience one needs to ask "why?" and be honest with what the HS is telling us.


Sandra Miller

 2007/3/6 12:33Profile

Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas


I may be out of line saying this, Ben but it seems like you are seeking a means to validate your sin. Sure their is nothing sinful about music, in itself, but their is a rebelliousness in most of these bands, that reeks of "I don't care what you think about what I am doing, I am going to play loud music, and wear these clothes, and if you don't like it, then tough luck!!"

You assume that I am sinning in some fashion concerning rock or the women rockers or something of the like. I'm not quite sure what sin you think I am attempting to validate, but perhaps that is because I am not attempting to validate anything If it is sin, then so be it. Let it be repented of and changed.

[b]You cannot make a blanket statement that every Christian rock band is rebelious because they don't listen to the contemporary standard of "what not to wear".[/b]

I do however agree that many of these bands started in rebellion, and many continue in it. Consequentially, those are the bands that I avoid, and counsel others to avoid. And I teach those that I counsel the difference between the two. Rather than group the two together. That is deceptive to the learner.

Citing particular bands, why would you want a Christian Youth Group to go a see Skillet play, under the guise of being their to get fired up for Christ's purposes, and listen to Corey singing about how God is "Better than drugs"? Why would you want to even put that comparison in their minds, if either they have kicked drugs, meaning that you are drawing their attention back to those days (which did have their fun moments) or they have not been exposed to drugs, where ignorance provides an element of safety for them? God wisely place a tree of the "Knowledge of Good and Evil" in the garden and then said, "Don't eat". This imagery is a form of "eating" of this "knowledge".

Why would I want them to? Because the truth is being spoken. God is better than drugs. Believe it or not, Christians have done drugs before because they don't believe that. This is a pathetic argument in my opinion. I fail to see your experience in discussing God with someone who has taken drugs. You don't understand their mindset on the issue. Everyone of them says the same thing about it. Almost my entire generation has taken drugs of some kind, and the just barely saved sometimes still go through withdrawls in their mind. So a bit of encouragement is what they need. Which they are not getting in most churches that are made up of so many perfect people.

The old "Wesley and Booth used to rewrite bar room songs..." argument is redundant, because these days, the music is pumping out at a massive decibel level, causing the "hearer" to be a "feeler" as well, and then are being asked "Can you feel the presence of God, here?" Much of the music is orchestrated to stimulate the emotions, and then emotions are being sold as a valid means of sensing God's presence.

This is an issue to me as well, and I am constantly on my guard, watching to see if that is what is taking place. I make sure that I am not easily influenced by what I hear, and that I use proper discernment in dealing with each song that comes along.

[b]You can't take everything at face value. You have in your mind, opinions of what looks good, and what looks evil, and it may or may not be correct. I am not saying that truth is not absolute, on the contrary I believe it is, but what clothes someone is wearing may or may not be imodest based off of one man's opinion. I know people who think that seeing a womans ankles is imodest. Do you agree?[/b]

I must admit that I have trouble reconciling the whole "Is their such a thing as Christian Rock?" question, when I consider bands like Third Day and Stavesacre (both of whom, I notice are absent from ATF's list of bands), but the fact is, there is a lot of chaff in the Christian music industry. One's mind can quickly go to a band like MXPX, who were for a long time the quintessential "Christian Punk" band. A good friend of mine went out for drinks with them while they were on tour in Australia. After having a long conversation with their manager, he asked the question, "So, what's the deal? Are Mike and the boys Christians, or what?" The response that he got was, "Look at them? Their drinking, swearing, tattoos and all. What do you think?" He went on to say that they go to church sometimes when they are home, but when they are on tour, they leave all that stuff at home.

For what it's worth, MXPX has never met my standard for what is right, their lyrics leave a whole lot to be desired in the area of Christian content. Besides they are too poppy for me to enjoy very much.

My whole point about the bands is that they must be discerned and judged on an individual basis.

[b]You question the clothe as though they appear sinful, yet I have seen and heard of horrible sinful acts done by people wearing a suit and a tie, jeans, full length skirts, maybe we should come up with an entirely new wardrobe so that the world will know who we are. Then anyone who sins can be thrown out and their garments confiscated.[/b]

Keith Daniel wisely said, "You don't win the world by being like the world, the world will win you."

I agree, if you love the world, then you will be like it and won by it.

If you love the Lord, then it will not be so. You may wear the same t-shirt as a sinner, but you aren't sinning because of it.

Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/6 14:51Profile

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