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hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

Quote:

BenWilliams wrote:
The great hymns that you cling to of Wesley, many were the worldly drinking songs played in bars, and he took those and wrote Christian words to them, and was ostricised for it. Yet you cling to it as though it was Holier than our music, which was written by Christians for Christians.



is there any evidence to this ? id like to examine this


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/27 15:35Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Well, as far back as I can remember,

I know I was filled with the Holy Spirit at the age of three, right before I turned four. But I don't remember anything before that age. So it was probably about the age of three, three and a half. For the sake of those that believe no one is saved unless they pray the sinners prayer, I did that when I was seven because I felt that I was in rebellion to the Lord, and not serving Him right, so I rededicated my life to Him at age seven.

So roughly I have been a Christian for about seventeen years, and have been to almost every denomination of church outside of roman catholicism. But the culture where I live is very heavily roman catholic, so I have become fairly well versed in that as well as the other denominations.

Hope that answers the question.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/27 15:36Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

speaking of Timothy... 1 Timothy 5:1 "Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren;"

and you mentioned the apostles... 1 Peter 5:5 "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble."

brother Ben, "...clothed with humility..." please take that to heart. How will men know that we are the disciples of Christ? by the love that we have for one another!

Psalm 133
1 Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
2 It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron’s beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;
3 As the dew of Hermon, and as the dew that descended upon the mountains of Zion: for there the LORD commanded the blessing, even life for evermore.

 2007/2/27 15:38Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

i get suspicious when people say they have been Christians their whole lifes...becuse we cant be born a Christian, we have to be born again...first time we where born of adam...

but you know this...

and Ben, even if we youths are right, we still should be humble to wards "elders", even sometimes when we are right we still should submit to elders..if it id not sin against God to do so, God has ordained elders and so on...we should be very thoughtful and respectful even if we only speak our minds, or our opinion, i lack here too sometimes,


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/27 15:44Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
is there any evidence to this ? id like to examine this



hmmhmm, I must apologize, I made a mistake, they were not specifically drinking songs, but they were secular music. I found that out during research after you asked me for evidence. Here is an article that explains it in full.


by Dean B. McIntyre



There is a popular misconception that continues to survive among United Methodists that John and Charles Wesley made use of tavern, drinking, or bar songs, as melodies for their hymns. The same is often heard of the great reformer and musician, Martin Luther. This claim is sometimes made to show the extent of their evangelistic zeal; namely, that they would go out into the secular culture, even into the taverns, saloons, and parlors frequented by the sinners they sought to redeem and make use of the musical language, the familiar drinking song tunes, for their own sacred hymns. The claim continues to be made today by some musicians, pastors, worship leaders, composers, and hymn writers. Unfortunately, this is a misapplication of a historical inaccuracy.

Confusion of Terms

The truth is that the Wesleys and Luther never made such use of saloon songs, nor would they have condoned such use. The misconception stems from confusion over a musical term — bar form. In German literature and music of the Middle Ages, "Bar" was a poem consisting of three or more stanzas. Each stanza was divided into two Stollen (section a) and one Abgesang (section b), which yielded a form of AAB. The term "bar form" is commonly used today to refer to any poem or musical composition in this AAB form, or any variation of bar form, such as AABA. A number of Luther's hymns and tunes used this form, including "A Mighty Fortress Is Our God." Other chorales ("Praise to the Lord, the Almighty") and hymns ("What a Friend We Have in Jesus," "Come, Christians, Join to Sing," "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross," "Rescue the Perishing") also use bar form. A number of tunes accompanying Wesley texts in the current United Methodist Hymnal also use bar form, including:


"Praise the Lord Who Reigns Above," UMH 96
"Thou Hidden Source of Calm Repose," UMH 153
"Come, Thou Long-Expected Jesus," UMH 196
"Hail the Day That Sees Him Rise," UMH 312
"Love Divine, All Loves Excelling," UMH 384
"I Want a Principle Within," UMH 410
"See How Great a Flame Aspires," UMH 541
"Come, Let Us Use the Grace Divine," UMH 606
"O the Depth of Love Divine," UMH 627
"Because Thou Hast Said," UMH 635
"Give Me a Faith Which Can Remove," UMH 650
"Come, Let Us Join Our Friends Above," UMH 709
"Lo, He Comes with Clouds Descending," UMH 718
It is not difficult to understand how the musical term, bar form, also sometimes referred to as bar tune, can become confused in an uninformed person's mind with barroom tune, drinking song, or some other title to indicate music to accompany the drinking of alcoholic beverages.

The Wesleyan Aesthetic for Hymn Tunes

There is also the deeper issue of whether the importing of secular and drinking songs into the church to accompany congregational singing would be acceptable to the Wesleys. Wesley issued three collections of tunes: the Foundery Collection in 1742, Select Hymns with Tunes Annext (in which first appears his celebrated "Directions for Singing," reprinted on page vii of The United Methodist Hymnal) in 1761, and his last, Sacred Harmony, in 1780. What we find in these collections yields an important insight into Wesley's musical aesthetic for hymn tunes. Here we find the simple, traditional psalm tunes and hymn melodies, primarily from Anglican song. A number of these survive in our own 1989 United Methodist Hymnal (nos. 60, 96, 142, 181, 302, 385, 414, 450, 682). However, many of Charles's texts were in increasing number and complexity of meter and required new sources for tunes to accompany them. John made use of new tunes composed or adapted from folk tunes, sacred and secular oratorio, and even operatic melodies. It should not escape us that whenever Wesley allowed the use of secular music — as from oratorio and opera — he used music of accepted high standard and almost always from classical rather than popular sources. In no instance did Wesley turn to tavern or drinking songs or other such unseemly sources to carry the sacred texts of songs and hymns.

Another help to understanding what Wesley considered appropriate in hymn tunes is to be found in his "Directions for Singing." Of particular importance is a portion of his fourth direction: "Be no more afraid of your voice now, nor more ashamed of its being heard, than when you sung the songs of Satan." It is clear that Wesley intends the "songs of Satan" to no longer be sung. Also important is his seventh direction:



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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/27 15:48Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
and Ben, even if we youths are right, we still should be humble to wards "elders", even sometimes when we are right we still should submit to elders..if it id not sin against God to do so, God has ordained elders and so on...we should be very thoughtful and respectful even if we only speak our minds, or our opinion, i lack here too sometimes,



I know...I just wish that everyone could leave their personal status aside, and debate without all this emotional offense, and disrespect stuff. I think it is quite shallow personally.

I guess other people just have to be themselves everywhere, and can't lay who they are down for the sake of debates.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/27 15:52Profile









 Re: musical discernment?

Quote:

BrianMira wrote:
many people take that as a personal attack...because they are still living in the world and the world is still living in them. there is no other answer...

i use to defend rap, rock, and reggae. actually, i remember saying after i started going to church that i would do anything but i did not see anything wrong with a little weed once and a while...

...it reminds me of the story of the little bit of dung in the brownie...

a little bit of the world in your walk will eventually knock you off the narrow path and that tangent will eventually lead you to hell.


Hi Brian

I believe the issue is mostly that of spiritual discernment, not our taste in music, or our personal opinions about what is good and what isn't.

I think it was watchman Nee in "Release of the Spirit" who said that our discernment and ability to help others, depends on our "brokenness".

If there is an area where we, personally are not yet broken then we will not be able to discern in that area.

Some music is OK, some isn't. As someone said, its the spirit behind it that matters.

it took me years of being a Christian to discern Sci Fi, because of being addicted to it. In fact it actually needed prayer for deliverance (after knowing the Lord for 16 years!) before I could discern what (evil) spirit much Sci Fi and fantasy writing is of.

That isn't to say that everyone who thinks heavy rock music is OK needs deliverance! I'm just sharing what it took for me in a different area.

I believe Nee was right; our ability to discern what is of God and what is not, is a result of the Lord's dealings in our lives, rather than our age or personal opinions or other such factors.

Makes one think - probably ALL of us have, or have had, blind spots in other areas if not in this.

That's why we need to listen to one another, and go to the Lord about any area in which we feel personally challenged.

That's MUCH better than arguing and raving at one another about things.

Isn't it?

You never know, maybe the "old fuddy duddy" who is bugging you could be right after all.:-P


in Him

Jeannette

 2007/2/27 15:53









 Re:

Quote:
when where you born again?



I was not raised in a Christian home. My grandparents took us kids to church now and then, and the VBS.

As a teenager I was a metal head... into Motley Crue, AC/DC, Dio, Poison, KISS, etc. Smoked pot and drank beer.

Joined the Marines in 1985. Been all over the world. Was one of the first ones to step foot in Kuwait in Gulf War I. Saw the "highway of death" first hand.

Wife and I lived together before we were married. Got married, and the she got saved. I made her life a living hell about her being "religious". She prayed for me even tho I was pretty much a drunk.

Finally got saved. Got deeply involved in the Charismatic Movement while we lived in Knoxville TN so I could get my college education out of the way at UT.

Moved back home to NC (my wife is from GA). Started to question the "insitutional church", as well as the Charismatic WOF movement. Started to deeply study the Word and examine everything I'd been taught. We started a church in our house, and we now have 6 churches meeting in homes under the leadership of a board of elders. I am the main teacher in our particular one, altho other men pitch in and teach as well.

And that's my testimony... Reader's Digest version.

You asked me, I tell you.

Krispy

 2007/2/27 15:59
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

the question was for Ben :-) i get suspicious when people say they been Christians all their lives(as i thought ben did), but glory to God for your testimony! id like the long version some time,


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CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/27 16:05Profile









 Re: Challenges!

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
what is it that is so hard by accepting some music as wicked? why do we defend it so much.... two things i find people defending ....sins and their music style....


Hi Hmmm

[i]Its this very defensiveness and anger at having something like this challenged that suggests there's something wrong.[/i]

To give an example in another area: As a young Christian (only a few months old) I was absolutely [i][b]furious[/b][/i] when someone challenged me (when a first year Biological sciences student) that "How can you believe in Evolution if you're a Christian?"

Afterwards, I thought, "Why am I so angry if its only a theory? I must have been brainwashed!"

It was like a light coming on! Suddenly I began to see all the flaws in the theory, and how the Genesis account is much more likely to be true from a [i]scientific[/i] viewpoint, than Evolution.

If you are angry and defensive at folks who say that rock music (or anything else)is wrong, ask yourself, and the Lord, [i]why?[/i]

-If you dare :-P

Jeannette

 2007/2/27 16:07





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