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John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Christianity and Psychology

This is a topic that weighs heavily on my heart. First let me say that I do not believe psychology has any answers. As a matter of fact, I believe the roots of psychology to be demonicly inspired. Christian counseling doesn't seem to have any anwers either. Yet, I am deeply aware of the fact that there are many brothers and sisters in this world of ours who carry deep emotional scars. My hearts cry is that the body of Christ can find the means to acknowledge this internal pain and learn to minister to the hurting. I know that our Lord recognizes this need. In some other post somewhere I made mention that I look upon Isaiah 61:1-3 as a mission statement of sorts for God sending His Son.


[color=330066]"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;[/color]
[color=0000CC]He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;[/color]
[color=330066]To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;[/color]
[color=0000CC]To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;[/color]
[color=330066]That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified."[/color]

I believe that the true method of healing from the Lord is nothing less than He Himself. Healing occurs as we enter in beyond the veil into his presence. I was mulling over this the other day and had an image come to mind of sitting on some sandstone steps looking down on the temple in Jerusalem with a young man to whom I was ministering. I put my arm around his shoulder and said "Let's go to the temple together." By this I meant let us go on into the holy of holies where healing is found.

I guess my point is that when we are hurting going into the holy place is not natural. It usually takes someone to lovingly and compassionately come along side them and gently speak the words of truth to them. God loves you! Come on, let's go together, shall we pray?

Oh Lord, help us to be aware of the brokenhearted amongst us. Let us be agents of Your love and concern. Teach us how to take them by the hand and lead them to Your throne of grace.

Amen,

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/25 0:58Profile
PTywama3
Member



Joined: 2005/3/1
Posts: 156
Tacoma, WA

 Re: Christianity and Psychology

I would be careful of such generalized statements.

Psychology is defined as:
1 The science that deals with mental processes and behavior.
2 The emotional and behavioral characteristics of an individual, group, or activity: the psychology of war.
3 Subtle tactical action or argument used to manipulate or influence another: He used poor psychology on his employer when trying to make the point. (from dictionary.com)

By this, your reference to psychology is an employed action, ala the use of knowledge (reference 3). In this regard, it would be easier to say there is no magic pill to give somebody which will "fix" them, but this is an approach which is viably inappropriate of the subject rather than the councilor (note the distinction there.)

As such, your encouragement of someone to seek and pray is indeed a use of psychology, just not inherently of the "ph.d." variety. Psychology is a field, much the same as theology or philosophy - which means it is practically impossible to avoid. Just because we don't like the term doesn't make it less viable or even useful.


_________________
David Reynolds

 2007/2/25 2:53Profile









 Re: Christianity and Psychology


Hi John,

This is a subject very close to my heart. But, the word 'psychology' (the study of the soul?) has many unhelpful connotations in Christians' minds, and with good reason.

One critic of Leanne Payne's 'The Healing Presence', said the money for the book was worth it for the discussion of Jungian thought alone. She points out that Jung held that the profane and the holy are two poles of the same entity. Which of course, is complete heresy to biblical truth.

But, what PTywama3 said here

Quote:
Subtle tactical action or argument used to manipulate or influence another:

in quoting a dicitonary definition, IS TRUE, and it can be CON-structive, rather than DE-structive.

This thought is most easily defined by the example of a dislocted or broken bone being put back in place, or, back into alignment so it can heal back into a condition for normal use, and without deformity. Too many Christians are willing to keep their emotional deformities, their pain, their psychological self-deceptions. I agree that this is a reason the church is weak.

I also agree that the place to take our pain is the holy of holies. But, there are many types of pain which we have been taught to ignore, or given the idea that WE have to fix first, before we can enter there.

My answer to this is 'Who made thee? - Does He not already [i]know[/i] your struggles - better even than yourself? Does He not already see your denials? Who better to meet and be made whole by Him? Nothing is more effective, or more private.

Let me comment that your suggestion of taking a person with you to pray, does pre-suppose their [i]trust[/i] faculty is in good working order.

I have more to say, but time defeats me. I hear your cry though, and your calling, and say AMEN! We need many more with this heart and this understanding, that God's people may be ABLE to suffer for Him.

 2007/2/25 6:05
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

PT,

I actually agree with you. I made mention that I believe psychology to have demonic roots. What I was refering to is the man most call the father of modern psychology, Sigmund Freud. This man had an extreme hatred for God and the church. I have no proof that he was possessed, but I have my suspicions.

Regardless, it remains true that going to a psychiatrist, psychologist or even what passes for Christian counseling seems to have no real value. I am speaking in terms here of the Christian and true improvement in maturity or faith etc.

In the church I have seen two camps. One attempts to use psychology and apply it to believers. These churches may even have a counceling department or an offshoot para-church ministry. The other tends to reject psychology and as a result ignore the fact that many people do have internal damage and make no effort toward ministering to their pain. This is a classic example of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Somewhere there must be a balance. I do not believe it is possible to exist in this world and not have some degree of emotional damage. Certainly, many of us find that reading the word of God, prayer, worship etc. ministers to this pain and normal growth results. But some damage is severe enough that in spite of a salvation experience the emotional baggage makes growth slow to near impossible. Severe pain causes insecurity, fear, a lack of trust and an inability to have close relationships. This means that these believers in turn are incapable of using their gifts to further the kingdom.

It is my hearts desire to minister to this segment of the body. I believe there is a great need in this arena. I also have a deep desire to teach others to minister in the same capacity.

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/25 9:41Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Just one brief comment. I struggle with the terminology in this discussion. Psychology as a word when mentioned in the church often elicits a knee jerk reaction because the hearer makes an association with secular psychiatry and has rejected such. What I want to communicate is simply the internal working of the mind. Unfortunately the english language doesn't have a word that makes this distinction clear.


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/25 9:49Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

Doug,

You have expressed my thoughts on this issue...and I agree. Some where there must be a balance.

When I worked at CPC we were taught methods on how to confront clients about their lifestyles: how to do it without creating any hostility, getting them to agree with you. Sounds good and for the most part it is. However, I soon realized we were appealing to the selfish mind of humans: what do you feel? how can it best serve MY interests? In time, the Holy Spirit convicted me that I should emphasize the Holiness of God as being the motivator to change. I did and the results were not impressive: what I said seemed to fall on hard soil. It was a concept too foreign to them: Me change just because God is holy and I am not? (Of course, it took some time to get to this point - I was not as blunt as this writing makes it appear.) So I decided the LORD wanted me to plant the seed and this is what was done..the results are up to God. But I promise to use psychology seems to get a more favorable hearing but no lasting results in the long run.

This has been my experience...

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/2/25 11:50Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re: Christianity and Psychology

Does the Bible contain the truth?

Does the Bible have all the answers?


Is there an area in which the Bible is insufficient?

how did the world get along for 1,900 years without it?

Is it a new truth?



just my 2 cents

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/2/25 13:16Profile









 Re: Christianity and Psychology

Quote:

John173 wrote:

[color=330066]"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon Me
Because the Lord has anointed Me
To preach good tidings to the poor;[/color]
[color=0000CC]He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives,
And the opening of the prison to those who are bound;[/color]
[color=330066]To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord,
And the day of vengeance of our God;[/color]
[color=0000CC]To comfort all who mourn,
To console those who mourn in Zion,
To give them beauty for ashes,
The oil of joy for mourning,
The garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness;[/color]
[color=330066]That they may be called trees of righteousness,
The planting of the Lord, that He may be glorified."[/color]

I believe that the true method of healing from the Lord is nothing less than He Himself. Healing occurs as we enter in beyond the veil into his presence. I was mulling over this the other day and had an image come to mind of sitting on some sandstone steps looking down on the temple in Jerusalem with a young man to whom I was ministering. I put my arm around his shoulder and said "Let's go to the temple together." By this I meant let us go on into the holy of holies where healing is found.

I guess my point is that when we are hurting going into the holy place is not natural. It usually takes someone to lovingly and compassionately come along side them and gently speak the words of truth to them. God loves you! Come on, let's go together, shall we pray?

Oh Lord, help us to be aware of the brokenhearted amongst us. Let us be agents of Your love and concern. Teach us how to take them by the hand and lead them to Your throne of grace.

Amen,

In His Love,

Doug



Doug, that is [i]beautiful![/i]. That image of going into the Holy of Holies to find healing, WOW! Its surely a true vision from God.

I'm sure I read somewhere that both Freud and Jung (especially Jung perhaps) were deeply involved in the occult and even (I think) used "spirit guides" to help them in their treatments.

And, of course, human psychological methods are usually man-centred, as someone already spoke of. How many Christian counsellors, and those who make it their business to pray for emotional healing, tell people "your problem is low self esteem"?!!!

I wonder if there [i]is[/i] however a place for counselling, if done rightly, even by a non-Christian. Not to heal (only the Lord can heal), but to give emotional support, a listening ear, in a non-condemnational way; and maybe help identify more clearly the issues and the hurts involved.

I'm thinking of a friend of a friend. She and her husbands are both ministers of a particular church, but her husband is extremely controlling, manipulative and emotionally abusive towards her. He has also joined the Freemasons!

She sought help from her superiors in the denomination they work for and they were the opposite of helpful, demanding that she continue to work, obey her husband and do nothing to ruin [i]his[/i] career!

Yet this man, or rather what is in him (it seems clear that he's demonised) is destroying her emotionally and spiritually! He has such a hold on her that she's unable to leave, though she needs to escape (the word we had for her was "flee for your life!"). He controls the money, what she wears, where she goes, and watches her constantly - even moniters her emails and listens to her phone conversations.

Counselling and support from someone who can be more objective, outside the situation, even from non-Christian professionals, could make a huge difference in such a case.

Thank you for this thread

jeannette

 2007/2/25 13:23
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
Counselling and support from someone who can be more objective, outside the situation, even from non-Christian professionals, could make a huge difference in such a case.



God can use the devil to save someone, he can use anything. This does not mean we should look for answers outside of Him.

Only God can see into the heart. He is sufficient in all things. We must have faith in Him and Him alone.

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/2/25 13:39Profile









 Re:

Quote:

tjservant wrote:
Quote:
Counselling and support from someone who can be more objective, outside the situation, even from non-Christian professionals, could make a huge difference in such a case.



God can use the devil to save someone, he can use anything. This does not mean we should look for answers outside of Him.

Only God can see into the heart. He is sufficient in all things. We must have faith in Him and Him alone.

TJ

In general I agree TJ, but we are given others sometimes, as gifts from Him, to minister to our need.

This lady I spoke of has no strength left to seek the Lord, and feels so far away from Him because of the emotional and spiritual oppression. Her husband constantly weighs her down with guilt and warns her that "a wife should obey her husband" etc. She cannot even, as it were, lift her head to cry out to God.

Another example: I had a very strange experience when working in a psychiatric nursing home. One of the patients thumped me, (because I wouldn't give him a cigarette, NOW!)and I was very upset. Not physically hurt - he was only treating me as one might a slot machine that wouldn't cough up the goods! - but I was in tears with the shock, (he'd never done that before and I felt that we were friends, as well as carer and patient).

Another patient who was [i]really[/i] crazy, (and very obviously, in her case, the trouble was demonic), came and put her arm around me to comfort me.

For an instant I recoiled. Then I thought what a wonderful thing that she could, in the midst of her own torment, reach out to another. So I said in my heart, "Lord, I accept this human comfort as from You!"

Yes, healing and all good things [i]are[/i] from the Lord , and we have to seek Him alone, yet He can send the most unexpected people to minister to us. Why shouldn't He sometimes send non-Christian counsellors, or even a mentally ill woman, full of demons (it was the woman, not the demons who offered the comfort)!

And didn't God send ravens to feed Elijah, then a woman from a pagan village; and a donkey to rebuke Balaam?


Jeannette

 2007/2/25 14:26





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