True Conversion, Why Repent? (2)

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Featured Sermon - Is the Lord among us by Duncan Campbell

Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : True Conversion, Why Repent?

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Re:

[color=0000CC]Dear Sister Diane

Thank you for those great insights. Its so good when we can look at Truth from different angles, to get a better appreciation of the whole. This I found especially helpful personally[/color]

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roadsign wrote:
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The probem is we aren't all Finney.

Good point, Goldminer! In fact, as soon as we try to copy Finney, or someone else, we cease being authentic to the way God is shaping us - that is, our true self. Sinners can sniff that a mile away.

Copying is a natural bent in us all and why not! We do admire our heroes of the gospel and realize how successful they were. But, replicas just dont work the same way....
...It wont work! Doing so is also an evidence that we are not waiting on the Spirit, rather, we are counting on OUR methods and efforts to change others.

[color=0000CC]Someone gave the example that Jesus treated the woman at the well and Nichodemus in completely different ways. The woman was probably already full of guilt, and also desperately hungry for love, or for [i]something[/i] to satisfy her heart, (she had obviously been seeking it in the wrong way and from the wrong people). She needed true love and acceptance, and an offer of true fulfillment. She already knew only too well that she was a sinner, though she may have put a brazen face on it to the world.

Nicodemus on the other hand was moral, respectable, upright, an expert theologian and Bible teacher. Unlike the woman he probably had no idea that he was still a sinner, or that there was anything lacking in his life. Yet the same inner hunger (probably unconscious) drove him to approach Jesus, (was he being a bit patronising when he began by a complimentary remark that God must be with Jesus because of the things He did?) But jesus immediately challenged both his relationship with God and his understanding of Scripture; in the kindest possible way, but at the same time cutting through all his religious pretentions. [/color]

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We cant change anyone! That is a humbling reality!

[color=0000CC]I know! But getting to the place where you stop trying is another matter. That's one of my greatest wesknesses :-([/color]

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Don't you think that we have a tendency to fit people, including Gods work into a box that makes sense to us and fits in with our life-views? But people are all so different from one another including their motives. So, to shape an evangelical message around what we believe are mans motives is very risky. We'll likely miss the target by a long shot.

[color=0000CC]Often we don't know our [i]own[/i] motives, let alone other people's![/color]

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The prodigal son had one motive: survival, and he was willing to do whatever it took to get some food in his stomach.

[color=0000CC]Hahaha, well put! Right! [/color]

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...We must present the word to them and bring them in the best we can and allow God to purify their motives. And again we humans can so easily fall into the trap of trying to do GODS WORK for him, and fail to do the work he has given US to do regarding our own relationship with him.

[color=0000CC]
Don't I know it :-( [/color]

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But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you; and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea.. Acts 1:8

Being witnesses is the outcome of our own relationship with God. It WILL show if it is there, and THAT is what others see. That is what gives us any authority: Christ's Spirit in us. If this is not evident through our mannerism, or words, our countenance, our way of relating to people, etc, then our most eloquent, persuasive preaching holds absolutely no authority.

Diane

[color=0000CC]That's so very challenging! Acts 1:8 especially spoke to my heart, especially re a discussion on another thread.

Thanks

Jeannette
[/color]

2007/2/25 9:19

CJaKfOrEsT
Member

Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

Re:

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UniqueWebRev wrote:
Granted that we do not consider heaven or hell until after we are made aware that sin is the cause of death. It is that knowledge of death brings the need to consider one's final destination, not the sin that brings one to death.

The [b]soul that sinneth, it shall die[/b]. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
[b]Eze 18:20[/b]

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and [b]sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death[/b].
[b]Jas 1:14-15[/b]

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The repentant sinner will beg to go to hell, and be offended at the notion that God could possibly allow them into heaven.

Any sane sinner, however repentant, will beg for forgiveness, and restoration into God's grace. Not being masochistic, I cannot imagine asking God to punish me for eternity when I know that He loves me, and that I can beg for forgiveness.

I think you misread what I wrote. I said "repentant [b]sinner[/b]" not "converted believer". I'm speaking of one who has become awakened to their sin, but has not yet placed his trust in Christ. My comments are observations that I have made, while open air evangelising. The difference between the heckler who repents, and the heckler who scorns, is the that scorner believes that he deserves mercy, while the repentant sinner understands that the mercy that he both craves and needs is totally undeserved. That one often needs to wrestle with his pride before he can accept God's free offer of mercy, because there is something in the heart of man that cannot tolerate being bankrupt.

Jesse's original article speaks of preaching to sinners, not to Christians. We must be careful of not putting our Christian mindset onto the sinner's mind. After all, we have the "mind of Christ", by which we can take for granted the simplicity of the gospel, but for the sinner, "the message of the cross is foolishness".

The point I'm making here is one of attitude, not rhetoric (ie, mere statements).

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The converted believer will rejoice in the God that sent His Son to die for Him, knowing the shame that is attached to the realisation of their own "poverty of spirit", all the while knowing that this is the criteria of ownership of the "kingdom of heaven".

...As for the Kingdom of Heaven, that is a gift from God the Father to his Son, Jesus, to rule and reign as God's heir apparent. This gift was given in a promise that if Jesus would go to earth in a man's body, live perfectly as a man, and die for those who would come to believe on Him as the Risen Son of God. Then, having sowed Himself into the ground, He would reap a harvest of souls for the Father, and for Himself, to rule and reign over forever.

I think you missed my reference to Mat 5:3:
"Blessed [i]are[/i] the [b]poor in spirit[/b]: for [b]theirs is the kingdom of heaven[/b]."

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In other words, they cannot even take comfort in the injustice of having someone die for them, because they know that they need it to survive.

...And in my realization of God's love for me, I do indeed take comfort from the love that prompted Jesus's unjust death. No one can be glad for the injustice, and yes, we must have Jesus's sacrifice to live for eternity, but if God planned it, and is satisfied, then so am I.

Again, I highlight the fact that I'm speaking of "repentant sinners". Unless you are not born again, then your statement is in effect like hearing someone saying that they just saw a ultrasound image of their unborn child, and that they now know the gender of their child, and responding, "What you didn't know the gender of your own child? Man, I knew my son was a boy 21 years ago."

John, in his first epistle spoke of "little children", "Young men" and "fathers" (1 John 2:12-14). The repentant sinner, is neither of these, because he doesn't even know the "forgiveness of sins"(v12) yet, for he is still unregenerate, while your statements have a vibe of one who knows "Him that is from the beginning" (v13a,14a).

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If you claim to be a soul winner, and you have neither tasted this kind of conversion in your own life, nor the lives of the ones that you have led to Christ, then may I say that I feel sorry for you, right after I say "Shame on you!!!"

I have never claimed to have won even one soul for God...

Only God can win a soul.

At the risk of sounding pedantic, I will change one word in your above statement:

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Only God can [b]save[/b] a soul.

... after all, I don't think that the Proverb is speaking of God, when it says, "The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and [b]he that winneth souls is wise[/b]." [b]Prov 11:30[/b]

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The Holy Spirit can touch the spirit of someone unsaved, creating a longing and curiosity about God. He can place people in the unsaved person's path, to witness for God, by their walk, or their words, or their passion for God. And the Holy Spirit must prepare all knowledge and readiness for a sinner to make a decision for or against Jesus. After the decision, the Holy Spirit again takes over, to teach and comfort the new convert through the journey to holiness, a lifelong quest to get nearer to the example of Jesus.

I totally agree with your statements here. However, they need take nothing anything away from Jesse's, or my comments in this thread. If we take your statements without ours, one can conclude that there is no place for the preaching of the gospel, because the "Holy Spirit can the spirit of someone unsaved". Don't forget, that this "unsaved" person, as you would call them, is what the Bible calls a "sinner" who has set himself up as an "enemy of God".

The sinner must be made aware of the fact of his enmity with God, before he can repent, and he must repent before he can put his actual trust in Christ. Sure, he can make a "decision" without repenting, but ask him about his poverty in spirit, and he'll respond by saying that he's "not that bad a person", as if Jesus had to die for everyone but him. This is what makes "backsliders" which one wise man called "counterfeit converts who never really slid forward in the first place."

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It is a rare thing for a single person, despite the help of the Holy Spirit, to have such influence over a sinner as to bring them, in the human portion of the process, to God.

No one here is claiming that any one person will lead someone to Christ, on his own. The point is the validity of the message presented.

May I suggest that you reread both my and Jesse's posts again, for you seam to be of the impression that we ignore the providence and grace of God in salvation. Far from it. It is only by the regeneration of the Holy Spirit that a man can be saved. However, the Holy Spirit will lead a man to hear the message of repentance, through to faith, before He gives them His life.

If you are wondering why I am being so pedantic in this matter, it is because I for one have witnessed repeated victims of the preaching of a diluted gospel that fails to emphasise "sin, righteousness and judgement", in favour of "avoidance of hell" and the "meeting of needs". The error is what is know as a "human centred gospel", while the former is Christ centred, utilising what Christ said was the testimony of the Holy Spirit (called the Comforter) to the world (John 16:7-8). This is true "Holy Ghost preaching".

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Aaron Ireland

2007/2/27 9:18

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GodsPeace
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Joined: 2005/9/8
Posts: 60

Re: True Conversion, Why Repent?

I appreciate many things said in this post. I have nothing to add, but know someone who does.

Richard Owen Roberts has a 2002 book; "Repentance: The First Word of the Gospel".

At about 350 pages he gives the topic a thorough going over. I hate to recommend a book I haven't finished reading but I can't resist. I'm not even half way through it and yet God has used it mightily in my life. I think it's important that the Lord has led me to pray before I read a section that the main purpose of reading is not to learn about repentance, but to do it, reflecting Thomas a Kempis, "I would far rather feel contrition than be able to define it."

Richard Owen Roberts is a venerable preacher with 33 audio/video and 10 text sermons available at SI. His "Seek My Face" is #7 on the "Top 25 Downloads" (link on left). Check him out if you haven't done so yet. And get the book too.

Jeffrey

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J. Buzza

2007/2/27 11:34

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roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

Re:

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If a person comes to Christ because of what they can get, they are just as selfish as a person who goes to a prostitute because of what they can get.

This statement is a little off. Allow me to explain.

A person who goes to a prostitute is in no way led by God to do so, and is working out the desires of their heart. Their will is enslaved to their heart which is a "slave to sin". Now to compare this to a person coming to Christ is very dangerous, for if someone truly comes to Christ, it is not because they are seeking some benefit for self, but rather because the Holy Spirit is convicting them and God is at work. To cheapen the work of God, and render Him impotent in salvation has been a drastic failure in modern day evangelism.

I too am glad that I am not Finney, as he had a very different view of what is was to be a Christian. I do not know much about his theology, but I do know that he would almost condemn people for moral failure, and thus create a guilt that may or not have been from God. The problem with this is of course who is moral enough, I mean if I have one standard of what I think a Christian should look like(no tea or sugar which Finney pushed) then what if others have a differing idea like no shorts and only suits and ties in Church. Do you see the problem with this, and how it can lead division rather than unity?

If one needs only to meet a moral criteria, then brethren we are in trouble as that wave is never stable, but constantly vascilating. Yet Christ is all, and He is the end of the Law to all who believe in Him.

Just some things to ponder.

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patrick heaviside

2007/2/27 13:13

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