I posted this is another thread and thought I'd post it here. This especially is good for open air preachers to hear:A sinner is a sinner because he's using his will for himself. He's self-seeking. Conversion begins when this spirit of self-seeking ends. Christianity begins when they "deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow me" Jesus said. The problem is that sinners are indulging themselves, walking after the flesh, and are seeking their own good rather then the glory of God and the good of others.If I were to appeal to their emotions, and tell them to come to Christ so that they don't go to hell, I'm appealing to their selfishness. If I say come to Christ so that you can be forgiven, I'm only indulging his wicked self seeking heart. And they become just as the rich young ruler, who wanted to add Heaven to his many possessions. If a person comes to Christ because of what they can get, they are just as selfish as a person who goes to a prostitute because of what they can get. A sinner needs to stop being self-seeking, and submit to God, to seek His honor and His glory. And until they do that, they cannot be converted. Because true conversion is not of mere outward actions, like the Pharisees, but true conversion is of the heart, when God changes not only what you do, but why you do it. And so a sinner is not converted until not only what he does is changed, but why he does it is changed. And why he does what he does is no longer for himself, but for God and for others.
I believe a Christian will come to Jesus to be freed from sin because he will hear the Spirit's call to repentance. A related question that is rarely asked is what will it cost me to follow Jesus? The answer is absolutely everything. It will cost my darling sins, my hidden pride, time, money, family, future. What it does it merit me to lay these things down? Absolutely nothing but I do it because I've decided to follow Jesus and I'm not turning back.Just a couple of thoughts.
_________________Ed Pugh
Lazarus1719 wrote:I posted this is another thread and thought I'd post it here. This especially is good for open air preachers to hear:A sinner is a sinner because he's using his will for himself. He's self-seeking. Conversion begins when this spirit of self-seeking ends. Christianity begins when they "deny yourself, pick up your cross, and follow me" Jesus said. The problem is that sinners are indulging themselves, walking after the flesh, and are seeking their own good rather then the glory of God and the good of others.If I were to appeal to their emotions, and tell them to come to Christ so that they don't go to hell, I'm appealing to their selfishness. If I say come to Christ so that you can be forgiven, I'm only indulging his wicked self seeking heart. And they become just as the rich young ruler, who wanted to add Heaven to his many possessions. If a person comes to Christ because of what they can get, they are just as selfish as a person who goes to a prostitute because of what they can get. A sinner needs to stop being self-seeking, and submit to God, to seek His honor and His glory. And until they do that, they cannot be converted. Because true conversion is not of mere outward actions, like the Pharisees, but true conversion is of the heart, when God changes not only what you do, but why you do it. And so a sinner is not converted until not only what he does is changed, but why he does it is changed. And why he does what he does is no longer for himself, but for God and for others.
but true conversion is of the heart, when God changes not only what you do, but why you do it. And so a sinner is not converted until not only what he does is changed, but why he does it is changed. And why he does what he does is no longer for himself, but for God and for others.
Since the whole point about salvation is where one spends eternity, how can one not start with the heaven or hell question?It's not a matter of emotionalism, although it is often used in that manner. It is a fact that we all must deal with.We are either for Jesus, or against Him, if only by default because we are not for Him. Genuine wickedness aside, consider how much God has done to get our attention on one simple matter - will we trust Him, or not? Do we believe Him or not?The remainder of Christianity is how to live the Christian life by walking in Chirst's footsteps. It is an impossible matter, of course, but we have to try, and keep on trying, no matter how often we fail.As for repentance, when I say my morning prayers, and take communion, how can I not repent? Is there one day in which I have not done something that I need to stop, apologize for, and do a complete 180 degree turnaround on?Does anyone not need to repent daily? Does anyone not need to repent several times a day?The whole point of living with the Jesus inside of you, and the Holy Spirit to teach and comfort you is that it becomes possible, in tiny bits and peices, to be changed. Not to change in our own strength, because no human is that strong. The Holy Spirit wants to change me. I just want to cooperate to the best of my ability so I can progress.Blessings,
_________________Forrest Anderson
I do understand what your are trying to say, there is only one way, forsake all and follow me. However, the problem is we don't have laborers that all know the same thing to preach, so we wouldn't get anyone saved if it required just one angle.[color=6600CC]Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? [/color]Charles Finney, wouldn't bring you through to salvation until you knew what it would cost you. No cheap salvation there. The people would be squalling and groaning and he would say you aren't ready. Then he would continue to tell them the cost, everything. It is said the the majority of folks saved in his meetings stayed that way for life. They knew the cost before they committed.The probem is we aren't all Finney. We must present the word to them and bring them in the best we can and allow God to purify their motives. Every preacher should make it known you aren't coming to Jesus as a fire escape or to get your boo boo fixed, but to lay down your life. After that He will take care of everything you commit to Him. This would stop of lot of the false conversions.
_________________KLC
The probem is we aren't all Finney.
We must present the word to them and bring them in the best we can and allow God to purify their motives.
_________________Diane
UniqueWebRev wrote:Since the whole point about salvation is where one spends eternity, how can one not start with the heaven ot hell question?
_________________Aaron Ireland
I see that there is a current thread:[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=15089&post_id=116652&order=1&viewmode=flat&pid=116638&forum=35#116652]Compassion[/url] that I feel aught to be linked to this one. Some excellent scriptures are presented there, that I believe aught to be integrated with this thread topic. How does compassion relate to conversion and repentance? Edit:
If a person comes to Christ because of what they can get, they are just as selfish as a person who goes to a prostitute because of what they can get.
CJaKfOrEsT wrote:Quote:UniqueWebRev wrote:Since the whole point about salvation is where one spends eternity, how can one not start with the heaven ot hell question?Quote:While I think I see your point, it is fundamentally flawed. The "heaven and hell question" comes after the "sin question", and not before.Granted that we do not consider heaven or hell until after we are made aware that sin is the cause of death. It is that knowledge of death brings the need to consider one's final destination, not the sin that brings one to death.Quote:The repentant sinner will beg to go to hell, and be offended at the notion that God could possibly allow them into heaven.Any sane sinner, however repentant, will beg for forgiveness, and restoration into God's grace. Not being masochistic, I cannot imagine asking God to punish me for eternity when I know that He loves me, and that I can beg for forgiveness. I would be aware that I might not receive it, but I could never say to God, 'I know I am unworthy, please punish me for eternity.' I could only say, 'I know I am unworthy of your slightest glance, but please, Lord, please, have mercy on me.'Quote: The converted believer will rejoice in the God that sent His Son to die for Him, knowing the shame that is attached to the realisation of their own "poverty of spirit", all the while knowing that this is the criteria of ownership of the "kingdom of heaven".Certainly I rejoice that God, before the beginning of the world, forsaw the need for a 'Kinsman Redeemer'. God knew before Adam sinned that he would sin, and yet God loved us, His creation so much, that He planned a way around His own law of justice to offer us a way out, and gain for Himself a family. Yes, there is shame that our sin was placed on the only Righteous One, and that He died to pay our sin debt. And in that, His righteousness becomes mine, and my shame is no more, for in God's eyes, I am perfect, washed clean by the Blood, able to be presented without spot or wrinkle to the Most High.God in His love, forgets our sin as soon as we repent, and sees us to be as pure and perfect as Jesus. This does not mean that God does not know how much I need to learn and progress, but that in Jesus, I have become His child, and am loved by Him with an extravagence of love that wipes out even the memory of sin and shame. As for the Kingdom of Heaven, that is a gift from God the Father to his Son, Jesus, to rule and reign as God's heir apparent. This gift was given in a promise that if Jesus would go to earth in a man's body, live perfectly as a man, and die for those who would come to believe on Him as the Risen Son of God. Then, having sowed Himself into the ground, He would reap a harvest of souls for the Father, and for Himself, to rule and reign over forever. Quote:In other words, they cannot even take comfort in the injustice of having someone die for them, because they know that they need it to survive.God gave Jesus, and Jesus gave Himself to act as our Kinsman Redeemer, dying for us that we might live. In my love and gratitude to God for this miracle, how can I not delight at what was done, even as I realize how much pain my sins caused my Saviour? Of course I need it to survive for eternity. God knew I needed such an unselfish, loving act to survive my inability to be sinless. And in my realization of God's love for me, I do indeed take comfort from the love that prompted Jesus's unjust death. No one can be glad for the injustice, and yes, we must have Jesus's sacrifice to live for eternity, but if God planned it, and is satisfied, then so am I.Quote:If you claim to be a soul winner, and you have neither tasted this kind of conversion in your own life, nor the lives of the ones that you have led to Christ, then may I say that I feel sorry for you, right after I say "Shame on you!!!" I have never claimed to have won even one soul for God. I talk to people about Jesus in the hope of sowing a seed, or watering seed already sown. No one has, to my knowledge, sat under my teaching, learning the first word about Jesus, come to faith in the Lord, or said the Sinner's prayer because of my actions.Only God can win a soul. The Holy Spirit can touch the spirit of someone unsaved, creating a longing and curiousity about God. He can place people in the unsaved person's path, to witness for God, by their walk, or their words, or their passion for God. And the Holy Spirit must prepare all knowledge and readiness for a sinner to make a decision for or against Jesus. After the decision, the Holy Spirit again takes over, to teach and comfort the new convert through the journey to holiness, a lifelong quest to get nearer to the example of Jesus.It is a rare thing for a single person, despite the help of the Holy Spirit, to have such influence over a sinner as to bring them, in the human portion of the process, to God. Perhaps a mother or father might manage it with their children, but unless they are on a desert island, I think that many people will be involved in each child's salvation. Above all, the Holy Spirit is the person most involved. But for all of us that seek to help the Holy Spirit touch the souls of men, and bring them to God, we are blessed indeed to see a completed fruit of our labor.I pray that all who witness for God will one day see the evidence of their labors in a perfected soul for God in Heaven.Blessings,_________________Forrest Anderson
While I think I see your point, it is fundamentally flawed. The "heaven and hell question" comes after the "sin question", and not before.
The repentant sinner will beg to go to hell, and be offended at the notion that God could possibly allow them into heaven.
The converted believer will rejoice in the God that sent His Son to die for Him, knowing the shame that is attached to the realisation of their own "poverty of spirit", all the while knowing that this is the criteria of ownership of the "kingdom of heaven".
In other words, they cannot even take comfort in the injustice of having someone die for them, because they know that they need it to survive.
If you claim to be a soul winner, and you have neither tasted this kind of conversion in your own life, nor the lives of the ones that you have led to Christ, then may I say that I feel sorry for you, right after I say "Shame on you!!!"
