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Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Curse=not God's Perfect will
Sickness comes from curse
Heaven cure fully removed
Heaven we are reconciled into God's perfect will
Heaven no sickness
No sickness or always healing God's perfect will

Again not a faith issue but a being true to God's will as revealed in His Word issue.
Saying God's will is not to heal can only come from the subjective.
God will is to heal...His Word and revelations settle it. Allow healing to come in to your heart so the Holy Spirit can lift that burden and reveal that truth to you

 2007/2/23 11:47Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Curse=not God's Perfect will
Sickness comes from curse
Heaven cure fully removed
Heaven we are reconciled into God's perfect will
Heaven no sickness
No sickness/healing God's perfect will



I dont have an argument with that... never have. I agree with that.

Sometimes God's healing comes in the form of death for the believer. They receive their healing when they enter the gates of splender.

The thing people cant comprehend is that perhaps God allows sickness to afflict a believer in order to accomplish something bigger. And if that's His will... then it is His [b]perfect[/b] will because He can not do anything that isnt perfect.

Y'all are starting to say that sometimes God does things outside His perfect will... which implies that He does things with a will that is not perfect. Thats called thin ice.

I've discovered something... this thread is chuck full of people who just loooooove to argue for the sake of arguing. I havent sensed at all that anyone's motives are to bring encouragement or understanding to anyone else. Just argue and score points. I'd be lying if I said I havent participated, because to some extent... I have.

I say this because my words have been twisted and manipulated to make it sound like I'm saying something that I am not. Made to look like I dont believe things that I do believe... and that I believe things that i dont believe.

But ya know... thats how deception works. A little truth here, a little twist here, a little out of context over there. The exegesis on this thread is horrendous. The premise of this thread is flawed. The arguments are not coming from scripture.

To put it bluntly... this is a hellish thread.

And before someone says I'm mad... I'm not mad at all. Just offering my observation.

Krispy

 2007/2/23 12:04
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

You're right about the thin ice. so let a brother clarify
Will has two meanings (both perfect)
What God Does and what God wants for us
God doesn't want us to be sick
God (obviously) allows sicknes but that is not what He wants for us is all I am trying to say

P.S - Krispy I think we'd get along...agrue...yes...get along...for sure peace brother

 2007/2/23 12:29Profile









 Re:

Provost... I agree with your last post.

Let's clarify. What Ben seems to be promoting is the doctrine that God will heal anyone who has the faith that God will heal them. THAT is what I am coming against. Not what you're saying.

Fact is... God will [b]not[/b] heal all that have faith that He will heal them. Sometimes God has a bigger picture in mind of what He is trying to accomplish by allowing someone to have an illness. Case in point: Joni.

Does God heal today? Absolutely. Does He heal everyone who comes to Him for healing? Absolutely not.

This is what Benny Hinn claims. Yet, Benny Hinn has yet (after several decades of "ministry") been able to produce even one single medically validated healing thru his ministry.

I've known believers who have been healed of cancer. Some it just seemed to disappear... others it happened thru medical help. Either way, it's a healing that God did.

However, I've know believers who had [b]great[/b] faith in God... more so than me, and they believed they would be healed... and they died. They received their healing in heaven.

I've know children who were too young to even understand faith in God who got cancer, or had some birth deformity... and they died.

Now how do we explain this? Did God make them die? No... the curse did. This was not God's original intent. I agree 100% w/that.

But we're not talking about original intent right now. Thats semantics. Ben is saying that God wants to heal all believers, [b]and if we are not healed it is because we lack faith[/b]. This is hogwash.

It's dung, to use a KJV term.

God is operating under the conditions that we, thru Adam, have set for ourselves. That is... a curse. So when God allows a believer to be ill, He has a plan, and under the conditions in which He has limited Himself to (notice I said "He limited Himself to"... that's important to note)... it is a "perfect" plan.

God knows all things, correct? While I am not a hardline Calvinist, there is something to "predestination". Thats something else that people are not paying any attention to in this discussion.

God has set my time of death, and I needn't concern myself about it. My faith teaches me that I am as safe on the battlefield as I am in my own bed.

Since God has set my time of death, if I become sick with cancer and die by this time next year... then thats the way it is. And it didnt surprise Him. And I would say that it was His perfect plan for me.

And tho I dont understand it all... I will by and by.

There... now I'll let you vultures pick apart everything I just wrote. :-)

Krispy

 2007/2/23 13:13
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

I dig and agree with what you said. One thing that I would point out for both of us (any others with disease) is that we do need to go up for prayer for our healing on a regular basis. We are commanded to do so. I do not go up every week but I do try to at least one prayer meeting a month, because I want to be (and learn how to be) obedient.

 2007/2/23 13:21Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

i searched the scriptures, maybe i missed a verse...but i cant find one single vers e that clearly says - Gods will is to heal ALL people...i find God has a lot of things that we can be absolutely sure is his will. maybe healing is...but its not in the bible...God heals people in the bible...he heals people today...but we cant SAY it is his will to heal all people... here are some of them, now if i missed a verse please tell me. God Bless

Mark 3:35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

Acts 13:36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:

Romans 1:10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

romans 8:27 And he that searched the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

romans 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


Romans 15:32 That I may come unto you with joy by the will of God, and may with you be refreshed.


1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Corinthians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

2 Corinthians 8:5 And this they did, not as we hoped, but first gave their own selves to the Lord, and unto us by the will of God.

Galatians 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Ephesians 6:6 Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart;

Colossians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,


Colossians 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.


1 Thessalonians 4:3 For this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that ye should abstain from fornication:


1 Thessalonians 5:18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.


2 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, according to the promise of life which is in Christ Jesus,


Hebrews 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

1 Peter 2:15 For so is the will of God, that with well doing ye may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men:


1 Peter 3:17 For it is better, if the will of God be so, that ye suffer for well doing, than for evil doing.


1 Peter 4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


1 John 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.



Psalm 138:1 I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.



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 2007/2/23 13:42Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: He did heal all

You see the problem isn't that there isn't scripture to back up that he didn't heal all. There is scripture to support He did heal all just like He saved all.

[color=3300CC]1Pe 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. [/color]


[color=6600CC]Isa 53:5 But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. [/color]

The problem is that we don't really understand that He was slain from the foundation of world. He purchased salvation and healing for all, we just don't all appropriate it.

Salvation is laid out on a big platter and all who will may come and healing is on that same platter. We just don't all really understand the provision secured for us. We need to.


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KLC

 2007/2/23 14:08Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

but to me that sounds like if you get sick then you cant be sure you are saved...


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 2007/2/23 14:24Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Quote:

hmmhmm wrote:
but to me that sounds like if you get sick then you cant be sure you are saved...


Difference in unbelief
The unbelief that hinders salvation is a rebelious, defiant unbelief
Sickness a doubt not rebelious defiance, but a doubt.
This would be the defense that goldminer and others could use...

 2007/2/23 14:32Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden

 Re:

intresting, but it could also apply to the sickness of our soul, our sinsick soul and that was healed on the cross, it was that what his stripes healed ?


Isa 53:4-9

In these verses we have,

I. A further account of the sufferings of Christ. Much was said before, but more is said here, of the very low condition to which he abased and humbled himself, to which he became obedient even to the death of the cross. 1. He had griefs and sorrows; being acquainted with them, he kept up the acquaintance, and did not grow shy, no, not of such melancholy acquaintance. Were griefs and sorrows allotted him? He bore them, and blamed not his lot; he carried them, and did neither shrink from them, nor sink under them. The load was heavy and the way long, and yet he did not tire, but persevered to the end, till he said, It is finished. 2. He had blows and bruises; he was stricken, smitten, and afflicted. His sorrows bruised him; he felt pain and smart from them; they touched him in the most tender part, especially when God was dishonoured, and when he forsook him upon the cross. All along he was smitten with the tongue, when he was cavilled at and contradicted, put under the worst of characters, and had all manner of evil said against him. At last he was smitten with the hand, with blow after blow. 3. He had wounds and stripes. He was scourged, not under the merciful restriction of the Jewish law, which allowed not above forty stripes to be given to the worst of male factors, but according to the usage of the Romans. And his scourging, doubtless, was the more severe because Pilate intended it as an equivalent for his crucifixion, and yet it proved a preface to it. He was wounded in his hands, and feet, and side. Though it was so ordered that not a bone of him should be broken, yet he had scarcely in any part a whole skin (how fond soever we are to sleep in one, even when we are called out to suffer for him), but from the crown of his head, which was crowned with thorns, to the soles of his feet, which were nailed to the cross, nothing appeared but wounds and bruises. 4. He was wronged and abused (v. 7): He was oppressed, injuriously treated and hardly dealt with. That was laid to his charge which he was perfectly innocent of, that laid upon him which he did not deserve, and in both he was oppressed and injured. He was afflicted both in mind and body; being oppressed, he laid it to heart, and, though, he was patient, was not stupid under it, but mingled his tears with those of the oppressed, that have no comforter, because on the side of the oppressors there is power, Eccl. 4:1. Oppression is a sore affliction; it has made many a wise man mad (Eccl. 7:7); but our Lord Jesus, though, when he was oppressed, he was afflicted, kept possession of his own soul. 5. he was judged and imprisoned, as is implied in his being taken from prison and judgment, v. 8. God having made him sin for us, he was proceeded against as a malefactor; he was apprehended and taken into custody, and made a prisoner; he was judge, accused, tried, and condemned, according to the usual forms of law: God filed a process against him, judged him in pursuance of that process, and confined him in the prison of the grave, at the door of which a stone was rolled and sealed. 6. He was cut off by an untimely death from the land of the living, though he lived a most useful life, did so many good works, and they were all such that one would be apt to think it was for some of them that they stoned him. He was stricken to death, to the grave which he made with the wicked (for he was crucified between two thieves, as if he had been the worst of the three) and yet with the rich, for he was buried in a sepulchre that belonged to Joseph, an honourable counsellor. Though he died with the wicked, and according to the common course of dealing with criminals should have been buried with them in the place where he was crucified, yet God here foretold, and Providence so ordered it, that he should make his grave with the innocent, with the rich, as a mark of distinction put between him and those that really deserved to die, even in his sufferings.

II. A full account of the meaning of his sufferings. It was a very great mystery that so excellent a person should suffer such hard things; and it is natural to ask with amazement, "How came it about? What evil had he done?’’ His enemies indeed looked upon him as suffering justly for his crimes; and, though they could lay nothing to his charge, they esteemed him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted, v. 4. Because they hated him, and persecuted him, they thought that God did, that he was his enemy and fought against him; and therefore they were the more enraged against him, saying, God has forsaken him; persecute and take him, Ps. 71:11. Those that are justly smitten are smitten of God, for by him princes decree justice; and so they looked upon him to be smitten, justly put to death as a blasphemer, a deceiver, and an enemy to Caesar. Those that saw him hanging on the cross enquired not into the merits of his cause, but took it for granted that he was guilty of every thing laid to his charge and that therefore vengeance suffered him not to live. Thus Job’s friends esteemed him smitten of God, because there was something uncommon in his sufferings. It is true he was smitten of God, v. 10 (or, as some read it, he was God’s smitten and afflicted, the Son of God, though smitten and afflicted), but not in the sense in which they meant it; for, though he suffered all these things,

1. He never did any thing in the least to deserve this hard usage. Whereas he was charged with perverting the nation, and sowing sedition, it was utterly false; he had done no violence, but went about doing good. And, whereas he was called that deceiver, he never deserved that character; for there was no deceit in his mouth (v. 9), to which the apostle refers, 1 Pt. 2:22. He did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth. He never offended either in word or deed, nor could any of his enemies take up that challenge of his, Which of you convinceth me of sin? The judge that condemned owned he found no fault in him, and the centurion that executed him professed that certainly he was a righteous man.

2. He conducted himself under his sufferings so as to make it appear that he did not suffer as an evil-doer; for, though he was oppressed and afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth (v. 7), no, not so much as to plead his own innocency, but freely offered himself to suffer and die for us, and objected nothing against it. This takes away the scandal of the cross, that he voluntarily submitted to it, for great and holy ends. By his wisdom he could have evaded the sentence, and by his power have resisted the execution; but thus it was written, and thus it behoved him to suffer. This commandment he received from his Father, and therefore he was led as a lamb to the slaughter, without any difficulty or reluctance (he is the Lamb of God); and as a sheep is dumb before the shearers, nay, before the butchers, so he opened not his mouth, which denotes not only his exemplary patience under affliction (Ps. 39:9), and his meekness under reproach (Ps. 38:13), but his cheerful compliance with his Father’s will. Not my will, but thine be done. Lo, I come. By this will we are sanctified, his making his own soul, his own life, an offering for our sin.

3. It was for our good, and in our stead, that Jesus Christ suffered. This is asserted here plainly and fully, and in a very great variety of emphatical expressions.

(1.) It is certain that we are all guilty before God. We have all sinned, and have come short of the glory of God (v. 6): All we like sheep have gone astray, one as well as another. The whole race of mankind lies under the stain of original corruption, and every particular person stands charged with many actual transgressions. We have all gone astray from God our rightful owner, alienated ourselves from him, from the ends he designed us to move towards and the way he appointed us to move in. We have gone astray like sheep, which are apt to wander, and are unapt, when they have gone astray, to find the way home again. That is our true character; we are bent to backslide from God, but altogether unable of ourselves to return to him. This is mentioned not only as our infelicity (that we go astray from the green pastures and expose ourselves to the beasts of prey), but as our iniquity. We affront God in going astray from him, for we turn aside every one to his own way, and thereby set up ourselves, and our own will, in competition with God and his will, which is the malignity of sin. Instead of walking obediently in God’s way, we have turned wilfully and stubbornly to our own way, the way of our own heart, the way that our own corrupt appetites and passions lead us to. We have set up for ourselves, to be our own masters, our own carvers, to do what we will and have what we will. Some think it intimates our own evil way, in distinction from the evil way of others. Sinners have their own iniquity, their beloved sin, which does most easily beset them, their own evil way, that they are particularly fond of and bless themselves in.

(2.) Our sins are our sorrows and our griefs (v. 4), or, as it may be read, our sicknesses and our wounds: the Septuagint reads it, our sins; and so the apostle, 1 Pt. 2:24. Our original corruptions are the sickness and disease of the soul, an habitual indisposition; our actual transgressions are the wounds of the soul, which put conscience to pain, if it be not seared and senseless. Or our sins are called our griefs and sorrows because all our griefs and sorrows are owing to our sins and our sins deserve all our griefs and sorrows, even those that are most extreme and everlasting.

(3.) Our Lord Jesus was appointed and did undertake to make satisfaction for our sins and so to save us from the penal consequences of them. [1.] He was appointed to do it, by the will of his Father; for the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. God chose him to be the Saviour of poor sinners and would have him to save them in this way, by bearing their sins and the punishment of them; not the idem—the same that we should have suffered, but the tantundem—that which was more than equivalent for the maintaining of the honour of the holiness and justice of God in the government of the world. Observe here, First, In what way we are saved from the ruin to which by sin we had become liable—by laying our sins on Christ, as the sins of the offerer were laid upon the sacrifice and those of all Israel upon the head of the scape-goat. Our sins were made to meet upon him (so the margin reads it); the sins of all that he was to save, from every place and every age, met upon him, and he was met with for them. They were made to fall upon him (so some read it) as those rushed upon him that came with swords and staves to take him. The laying of our sins upon Christ implies the taking of them off from us; we shall not fall under the curse of the law if we submit to the grace of the gospel. They were laid upon Christ when he was made sin (that is, a sin-offering) for us, and redeemed us from the curse of the law by being made a curse for us; thus he put himself into a capacity to make those easy that come to him heavily laden under the burden of sin. See Ps. 40:6–12. Secondly, By whom this was appointed. It was the Lord that laid our iniquities on Christ; he contrived this way of reconciliation and salvation, and he accepted of the vicarious satisfaction Christ was to make. Christ was delivered to death by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God. None but God had power to lay our sins upon Christ, both because the sin was committed against him and to him the satisfaction was to be made, and because Christ, on whom the iniquity was to be laid, was his own Son, the Son of his love, and his holy child Jesus, who himself knew no sin. Thirdly, For whom this atonement was to be made. It was the iniquity of us all that was laid on Christ; for in Christ there is a sufficiency of merit for the salvation of all, and a serious offer made of that salvation to all, which excludes none that do not exclude themselves. It intimates that this is the one only way of salvation. All that are justified are justified by having their sins laid on Jesus Christ, and, though they were ever so many, he is able to bear the weight of them all. [2.] He undertook to do it. God laid upon him our iniquity; but did he consent to it? Yes, he did; for some think that the true reading of the next words (v. 7) is, It was exacted, and he answered; divine justice demanded satisfaction for our sins, and he engaged to make the satisfaction. He became our surety, not as originally bound with us, but as bail to the action: "Upon me be the curse, my Father.’’ And therefore, when he was seized, he stipulated with those into whose hands he surrendered himself that that should be his disciples’ discharge: If you seek me, let these go their way, Jn. 18:8. By his own voluntary undertaking he made himself responsible for our debt, and it is well for us that he was responsible. Thus he restored that which he took not away.

(4.) Having undertaken our debt, he underwent the penalty. Solomon says: He that is surety for a stranger shall smart for it. Christ, being surety for us, did smart for it. [1.] He bore our griefs and carried our sorrows, v. 4. He not only submitted to the common infirmities of human nature, and the common calamities of human life, which sin had introduced, but he underwent the extremities of grief, when he said, My soul is exceedingly sorrowful. He made the sorrows of this present time heavy to himself, that he might make them light and easy for us. Sin is the wormwood and the fall in the affliction and the misery. Christ bore our sins, and so bore our griefs, bore them off us, that we should never be pressed above measure. This is quoted (Mt. 8:17) with application to the compassion Christ had for the sick that came to him to be cured and the power he put forth to cure them. [2.] He did this by suffering for our sins (v. 5): He was wounded for our transgressions, to make atonement for them and to purchase for us the pardon of them. Our sins were the thorns in his head, the nails in his hands and feet, the spear in his side. Wounds and bruises were the consequences of sin, what we deserved and what we had brought upon ourselves, ch. 1:6. That these wounds and bruises, though they are painful, may not be mortal, Christ was wounded for our transgressions, was tormented or pained (the word is used for the pains of a woman in travail) for our revolts and rebellions. He was bruised, or crushed, for our iniquities; they were the procuring cause of his death. To the same purport is v. 8, for the transgression of my people was he smitten, the stroke was upon him that should have been upon us; and so some read it, He was cut off for the iniquity of my people, unto whom the stroke belonged, or was due. He was delivered to death for our offences, Rom. 4:25. Hence it is said to be according to the scriptures, according to this scripture, that Christ died for our sins, 1 Co. 15:3. Some read this, by the transgressions of my people; that is, by the wicked hands of the Jews, who were, in profession, God’s people, he was stricken, was crucified and slain, Acts 2:23. But, doubtless, we are to take it in the former sense, which is abundantly confirmed by the angel’s prediction of the Messiah’s undertaking, solemnly delivered to Daniel, that he shall finish transgression, make an end of sin, and make reconciliation for iniquity, Dan. 9:24.

(5.) The consequence of this to us is our peace and healing, v. 5. [1.] Hereby we have peace: The chastisement of our peace was upon him; he, by submitting to these chastisements, slew the enmity, and settled an amity, between God and man; he made peace by the blood of his cross. Whereas by sin we had become odious to God’s holiness and obnoxious to his justice, through Christ God is reconciled to us, and not only forgives our sins and saves us from ruin, but takes us into friendship and fellowship with himself, and thereby peace (that is, all good) comes unto us, Col. 1:20. He is our peace, Eph. 2:14. Christ was in pain that we might be at ease; he gave satisfaction to the justice of God that we might have satisfaction in our own minds, might be of good cheer, knowing that through him our sins are forgiven us. [2.] Hereby we have healing; for by his stripes we are healed. Sin is not only a crime, for which we were condemned to die and which Christ purchased for us the pardon of, but it is a disease, which tends directly to the death of our souls and which Christ provided for the cure of. By his stripes (that is, the sufferings he underwent) he purchased for us the Spirit and grace of God to mortify our corruptions, which are the distempers of our souls, and to put our souls in a good state of health, that they may be fit to serve God and prepared to enjoy him. And by the doctrine of Christ’s cross, and the powerful arguments it furnishes us with against sin, the dominion of sin is broken in us and we are fortified against that which feeds the disease.

(6.) The consequence of this to Christ was his resurrection and advancement to perpetual honour. This makes the offence of the cross perfectly to cease; he yielded himself to die as a sacrifice, as a lamb, and, to make it evident that the sacrifice he offered of himself was accepted, we are told here, v. 8, [1.] That he was discharged: He was taken from prison and from judgment; whereas he was imprisoned in the grave under a judicial process, lay there under an arrest for our debt, and judgment seemed to be given against him, he was by an express order from heaven taken out of the prison of the grave, an angel was sent on purpose to roll away the stone and set him at liberty, by which the judgment given against him was reversed and taken off; this redounds not only to his honour, but to our comfort; for, being delivered for our offences, he was raised again for our justification. That discharge of the bail amounted to a release of the debt. [2.] That he was preferred: Who shall declare his generation? his age, or continuance (so the word signifies), the time of his life? He rose to die no more; death had no more dominion over him. He that was dead is alive, and lives for evermore; and who can describe that immortality to which he rose, or number the years and ages of it? And he is advanced to this eternal life because for the transgression of his people he became obedient to death. We may take it as denoting the time of his usefulness, as David is said to serve his generation, and so to answer the end of living. Who can declare how great a blessing Christ by his death and resurrection will be to the world? Some by his generation understand his spiritual seed: Who can count the vast numbers of converts that shall by the gospel be begotten to him, like the dew of the morning?

When thus exalted he shall live to see

A numberless believing progeny

Of his adopted sons; the godlike race

Exceed the stars that heav’n’s high arches grace.

—Sir R. Blackmore


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 2007/2/23 15:20Profile





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