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lamuskrat
Member



Joined: 2005/10/3
Posts: 117
Gonzales, La

 query...what say ye?

1)Man of God is trying to enter a communist country with Bibles, where the Gospel and Bibles are forbidden. He is now trying to further the Gospel and fulfill the great commission by going into this country. At the point of entry, the customs officer or security bureau asks the man of God a direct question: "Are you bringing into the country any religious literature", to which he lies and says "no", also upon entry he was asked directly the purpose of his visit, to which he replies, "tourism".

2) Man of God lives in communist country. From his youth he has seen miracles of God performed for his family, and has personally experienced the intervention of God. While he continues to spread the Gospel, he becomes a wanted man. All the while he sees' Gods' divine intervention in his life and ministry. Once upon being caught by the police he feigns lunacy and also lies under direct questioning to avoid capture, and persecution not only for him but for others also.

Q. Anything wrong with either of these two scenarios?
Q. When does God look the other way or wink at sin?
Q. Is it a sin?

Please help me with my confusion here.

awatchman :-(

My apologies if this has been discussed previously.


_________________
Mike Androne

 2007/2/19 17:30Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re: query...what say ye?

The Lord knew that scenarios like that would come up when He forbid lying.


_________________
Jordan

 2007/2/19 18:43Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re: query...what say ye?

I do not know the source of your information....but I will ask you are you 100% certain this is true?

Let me tell you a true story....quite a few years ago, maybe 35, we had a man who smuggled Bibles and other lit into the USSR and other commnunists countries speak in our church - he was the late David Bontrager. He had stories to tell just like Brother Andrew shares in his book "God's Smuggler". I asked Bro. Bontrager's secretary about allegations like you just mentioned. She said those are not true. What happens is the guards cannot understand how this lit gets by them and so they will say this. But no, they do not lie, at least Bro. Bontrager did not.

Mind if I say another story?..one not necessarily along the same vein...Bro. Bontrager and his wife Amy built an addition to their home to house the many visitors that came by, many from Communists countries. Some they knew, but not all. One day a strager came by and asked for lodging and being the good people they were they allowed him to stay and he did for three weeks until one day he vanished. Later they discovered he was a KGB agent! (Bro. Bontrager's grandson married my first cousin..so I got this straight!)

Anyhow, this is how one person did it...cannot speak for all Bible smugglers...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/2/19 22:18Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: query...what say ye?

[b]Josh 2:4[/b] And the woman took the two men, and hid them; and she said, Yea, the men came unto me, but I wist not whence they were:

Rahab lied but, By faith Rahab the harlot perished not with them that were disobedient, having received the spies with peace. [b]Hebrews 11: 31[/b]
&
[b]James 2:25[/b] And in like manner was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works, in that she received the messengers, and sent them out another way?

 2007/2/19 23:06Profile
iansmith
Member



Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL

 Re: query...what say ye?

I tried to answer earlier while I was at work, but the internet went down.

Brother Andrew's book 'God's Smuggler.' Brother Andrew originally applied for a visa as a missionary but was refused and went back and applied as a 'teacher' and was accepted... he wasn't lying, just using a different word.

Brother Yun's book 'The Heavenly Man.' Brother Yun never rejected his Lord and Savior despite constant imprisonment and several near brushes with death. He was able to see that despite the apparent power that the Chinese Communist government had, that it was in fact the Lord Jesus that had all the power -Brother Yun never denied his savior. Thank God that he was able to find a way out of China and share his testimony with us in the West.


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Ian Smith

 2007/2/19 23:33Profile









 Re: query...what say ye?


Quote:
... religious literature ...

Two thoughts:

The Bible is the Word of Life - the [i]opposite[/i] of 'religion'.

Wasn't there someone in scripture who feigned lunacy?


And, remember that in Communist countries, they forcibly sedate people for dissention, and they imprison Christians in psychitric institutions, saying they are mad because of what they believe.


One thing I remember from God's Smuggler, was a useful prayer which I've used myself in certain situations since: to pray confusion on the persons threatening God's work.

In one case, a woman in the hospital where I worked, was practising as a medium after lights out, making predictions.... so I prayed confusion on her 'gift', so her reputation would be in question.

What surprised me more than the answer to that prayer, was that the woman's demeanour with me changed completely - she was so nice! - despite that her power had been molested by a greater power, the power of God. It was a very encouraging lesson to learn.

 2007/2/20 7:18
athanasius86
Member



Joined: 2007/2/14
Posts: 5
Cincinnati, OH

 Re: query...what say ye?

I agree that maybe the first scenario is not real. I have also read God's Smuggler by Brother Andrew, and I don't think he ever used deception of that type.
There are multiple occasions in the Bible where some type of deception is used, and it is not condemned either. The midwives in Egypt lied to protect the babies and God blessed their homes. David's lunacy has already been mentioned. When I read the account of Paul being brought before the council composed of both Pharisees and Sadducees, he seems somewhat deceptive as well. He said that the issue was all about the resurrection of the dead, which it was, but not the way the Pharisees and Sadducees thought he meant it.
Certainly, we must take all of the Word of God into account and there are clear prohibitions against deception. Still, I am not convinced by these pat answers that we must never lie.
I am hesitant to condemn spiritual giants like Corrie Ten Boom, Brother Andrew, and Brother Yun. These saints operated under the power of God and exemplified a life of holiness. Therefore, these issues may not be as they first appear.

Athanasius


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Jordan

 2007/2/20 8:01Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

I must agree with dorcas:

If I was smuggling Bibles into a country where it was forbidden, and they asked me if I had any religious material, I would tell them:

"no, I hate religion!"

And if I was arrested, I don't know that I would fake lunacy, but if I knew they would release me if I faked lunacy, you better believe it. There are some countries where insane people are viewed as special to the gods there.

I don't believe either of those two to be lying.

However, answering direct questions with lies is wrong, but as demonstrated earlier, your answer to their question will depend on your point of view.

However when it comes to questioning, I say this, "silence is golden, unless the Spirit tells you what to say."


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/20 10:57Profile
lamuskrat
Member



Joined: 2005/10/3
Posts: 117
Gonzales, La

 Re: query...what say ye?

For clarification: the first example is not from any book. I know this man of God personally. He is one of the Godliest men I know. A true prayer warrior and very biblically sound and learned. So I did not get this second hand and he is not the type to jest about the things of God. In our conversation he even admitted this is a topic of debate.

In the book the "The Heavenly Man", Bro Yun did not deny his Savior but in his attempt to save himself and others he faked lunacy (which I have no problem with), but he did go around verbally stating that he doesn't know these people or there whereabouts.

Let me also say I am seriously thinking about this issue. I did not post lightly. As men/women of God our yeas' should be yea and nay- nay. We should be above reproach in conduct and conversation. If we are ministers of the gospel and we are doing the will of God (with a right heart) then God will move sovereignly work/move in your life and others, to see the furtherance of the gospel. Just like He did for Bro Yun in China many times. The Lord doesn't need human effort (deceit) to get the gospel out.

Like when I was in bible college and our personal evangelism course was based on a lie. Was it no wonder that the conversion rate was almost nil, and the bible study ploy being used for home entrance was NIL. God will not honor such things.

GOD DOESN'T WINK AT SIN.



A reply from a very good friend and devout man of God.

Bro Mike,...Was Rahab wrong when she hid and then 'lied" about the wherabouts of the 2 spies??....Was David being deceitful when he "scrabbled and spittled" before Achish the King of Gath?? (1 Sam 21:10-15) Were the brethren wrong when they helped Paul escape and lowered him down the city wall through a window that he avoid capture and murder??...Point being that as an example, the principal of "murder" is wrong, but in a time of war its permissible to "kill". Is it wrong to take the Gospel at "any cost"(lying to authorities) to a closed country for the sake of the salvation of lost eternal souls??.... Whats the "higher" law and principle?? When David and his men ate of the "shewbread" which was "unlawful" for them to eat (it was only to be eaten by the priests) in order to feed themselves in a time of crisis , then the higher law of "mercy" overroad the lower law of who the bread was intended for. If I came to Christ because a missionary "lied" to authorities to reach me, To me, It would'nt be an issue!...God bless my dear Brother!...Bro ********* (You may post this answer on Dakes Forum if you wish)
_________________
For thus hath the LORD said unto me, Go, set a watchman, let him declare what he seeth. Isaiah 21:6


_________________
Mike Androne

 2007/2/20 17:55Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi

 Re:

The issue as I understand it is is it right to say a lie for any reason? even to save another person's life?

Brother, as a person who works to be truthful in all I do or say, I find this issue a tad bit disturbing - although one that needs to be considered; it is like asking is it ok to sin depending on certain circumstrances?

Can we not see that not all questions are worthy of being answered? Can we not do as Jesus did, listen carefully and ask one in return? or not say anything at all? or just wait and see how the LORD would have you answer a tricky question? Many times when counseling clients at CPC I did not know what to say. Our training did not prepare us for all the situations we encountered. But I have learned to be quiet and rest in the Holy Spirit and at the proper time He would give me words to say. Afterwards I would be in awe.....I made no point in remembering whatI said because I know the Holy Spirit would do it again: it was his work anyways and all I was is a vessel. Perhaps one should consider this issue in the same manner? Just be content to be a vessel through whom the Holy Spirit will speak and not worry about it, except for perhaps fear that you may take matters into your own hands and foul things up.

My thoughts...

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/2/20 22:06Profile





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