Hello Philologos,My first reaction apologetically is to contain the concept that "Our spirit" is the source of any revelation knowledge (or chrisma) that could require an interpretation. I'm not suggesting you meant that, but I want to deal with that if perchance it would seem possible to someone who reads this thread. I Cor 14:12 clearly defines these things as "manifestations of the Spirit." I Cor. 12:6 "and there are varieties of working, but it is the same God who inspires them all in every one" (RSV). Personally I would reject any notion that my spirit was the source of any charisma; but rather is rooted in the Holy Spirit alone and is energized by the dunamis of God. This is why we are to be FULL of the Holy Ghost. I could sooner argue for the "my spirit" being the "earnest of the Spirit" (Eph 1) than from a "spirit, soul, and body" (though I believe we are triune beings) and the spirit praying being MY spirit. I reject that notion on the grounds that I have no concept in myself what God's will is for me other than in a logos sense that God's word is in me (God's will is God's word). We know not how to pray as we ought..., enough said. That whole belief in our spirit praying rings of some old Kenneth Hagin material I once read. I found the material to be dangerously heretical. For this reason... so much of that spirit, soul, and body theology is shrouded in mystery and too often doctrines are made out of suppositions. It deifies man and exalts mans "spirit" into the role of the Holy Spirit. That is a source of great confusion and in the end leads to the concept that our words have creative powers. I reject this also. If I have time I may work through a polemic on the matter once my site is up and running.Best Regards in Christ,-Robert
_________________Robert Wurtz II
Dear Delboy,Tongues is certaily God-ward until a person by the Spirit manifests xenoglossolalia for the purpose of edification of the body. Then it is directed at men for edification (seems clear in I Cor 12 & 14). I would not concur in this case that the interpreter is eaves-dropping on a conversation between a person and God by inspiration. it is my position based upon my clearest understanding of scripture that tongues are used by God to reinforce (or introduce) the message that a person or persons would not receive in their native language. Charles Parham initially saw tongues as a needed for missionaries. That's how the modern day Pentecostal movement began. Wow! how did we get on all this....? I need to head back to the revival threads....God Bless,-Robert
Robert wrote My first reaction apologetically is to contain the concept that "Our spirit" is the source of any revelation knowledge (or chrisma) that could require an interpretation. I'm not suggesting you meant that, but I want to deal with that if perchance it would seem possible to someone who reads this thread. I Cor 14:12 clearly defines these things as "manifestations of the Spirit." I Cor. 12:6 Hi RobertPlease don't lump me with Hagan; I don't believe in guilt by association anyway but it will just produce a fog for people trying to follow our reasoning. You are quite right that Paul refers to '[color=0000FF]manifestations of the Spirit[/color]'. I feel we would have had less confusion if we had stuck to this rather than describe them as 'gifts of the Spirit'. However, Paul specifically says [color=0000FF] For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.[/color] which shows quite specifically that when he 'spirit-prayed' it was his spirit that was doing the praying. Likewise it would be his spirit that sang and blessed.From the way Paul continues this passage it would be difficult to support the idea that a 'message in tongues' is totally different in its operation to these other activities. I don't think you would want to say "when he prays/sings/blesses in spirit/tongues the source is his own spirit, but when he gives a 'message in tongues' the source is the Holy Spirit"; would you?But, to return to your quote, it is absolutely true, as stated, that speaking with tongues is a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. How can we reconcile these apparant contradictions? Easily, [color=0000FF]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.[/color][Rom 8:26,27] The key phrase here is [color=0000FF]the Spirit also helpeth...[/color]I would like to suggest that what the Pentecostals/Charismatics call 'devotional tongues' is the Holy Spirit manifesting Himself in the prayer of the pray-er. I note that these operations are referred to as '[color=0000FF]manifestations of the Spirit[/color]'. I understand that to mean that this is the Spirit revealing Himself; not manifestations from the Spirit, but manifestations of the Spirit.Let me describe what frequently happens in our meetings (not that this proves anything). From the midst of praise and people reaching out to God a 'tongue' is heard. It is more conspicuous than others who may be praising in the meeting. A special significance of the 'tongue' is sensed. The meeting grows silent (relatively). When the 'tongue' ends there is usually a brief period of relative silence while folk 'wait' for the interpretation. When the interpretation is given it is almost like a psalm; its focus is God, but it will gather in others... [color=0000FF]let us exalt His name together.[/color]The result of this is usually a further wave of praise which sweeps through the meeting. I think what we heard was the Holy Spirit energising a human spirit to bring praise that, at its source, would be well beyond the human understanding. Sometimes we have the Pentecostal/Charismatic version of tongues and interpretation too; I know which one captures my spirit.We frequently have prophecy in our meetings too. Not the bland 'God knows' or 'God is going to bless' but prophecy which speaks to specific need in challenge or comfort; exhortation, edification, strenthening. Sometimes we have the bland 'God knows'type too.Why the mixture? I have a theory for that too. :-D But I'll wait to hear your comments on the above.
Sorry for the Hagin thing. Sometimes I'm in such a hurry getting a point out that... well... I apologize. As for your explaination, I can go for that. Makes sense. As long as we concur on the ultimate source of it all as the Holy Spirit and our "spirit" being the vehicle (as it were) for manifesting the gift. I think we are kind of in the "quantum physics" of theology and unseen things. We are looking into scripture to uncover all that is inferred to make concrete ideas- but we will look through a dark glass in this life and understand only in part.its been a while since I encountered someone with the depth of your understanding that was not in flakesville. How have you maintained the balance?God Bless,-Robert
RobertW:So all of the other folks are from Flakesville? :-o Just kidding.Sam
God have mercy on me I did it again! Actually what I meant was that people who I have encountered who thought that deeply about those issues have gone doctrinally off the deep end. I have realized quite quickly that there are some highly spiritual and learned people on this site. Thank God I have found this place!I'm having flashbacks to when I first attended the Messianic Institute (sort of like seminary). I came in guns blazing answering questions while the elders shook their heads (lol). I learned quickly the company I was in and I opted for that passage in proverbs that sort of says even a fool seems wise if he doesn't talk. I'm no fool, but here I am again... God Bless,-Robert