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 Question on the Rapture

I've heard and read many different views on exactly what will happen just before and during Jesus' return. Including the extreme "Preterist" position that spiritualises everything post 70 AD, and says He did return then!

Apart from the above theory, I'm still "on the fence" re the question of exactly when "the Rapture" is supposed to take place.

A case can be made for the Rapture happening as n the Left Behind books - before the Second coming. After which, the Antichrist will soon appear. Some people quote "one shall be taken and the other left", although the context suggests that this may refer to the destruction of Jerusalem (70 AD?), and that those who are "taken" are in fact those who are killed.

A case can also be made for the Second Coming and the Rapture happening at the same time, as in 1Thessalonians 4: 15 [b][i]For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first; 17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so we shall always be with the Lord.

Also 2Thess 2: 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, and the Lord Jesus will slay him with the breath of his mouth and destroy him by his appearing and his coming. 9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.[/i][/b]

So many interpretations of Scripture - Pre Trib, post Trib, premillennial, post millennial, amillenial...

Personally I tend to think that the Rapture and the Return of Christ will be part of the same event, and perhaps the destruction of Antichrist and start of the Millennium as well.

Or maybe we just need to be ready, our "loins girded and our lamps burning", and don't need to know these things until they happen?

What do others think?

Jeannette

 2007/2/14 18:55









 Re: Question on the Rapture

Quote:
What do others think?



[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13949&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Questions for those who don't believe in the rapture[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13886&forum=35]Rapture?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13622&forum=36#105598]The Secret Rapture Deception[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=13255&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1]The Rapture, Are you read?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13121&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Chronology of End Time events[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12404&forum=44]The Rapture[/url]

Here are a 'few' of the discussions that have taken place on this.

Quote:
Or maybe we just need to be ready, our "loins girded and our lamps burning", and don't need to know these things until they happen?


Sister, I think the most important thing is that we [i]are ready[/i] and waiting for His return for the Church, the Bride of Christ.

"Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;
36 And [b]ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.[/b]
37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord [b]when he cometh shall find watching[/b]: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.
39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.
40 [b]Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not[/b]." Luke 12:35-40

"Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, [b]My lord delayeth his coming[/b]; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 [b]The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware[/b], and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, [b]which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will[/b], shall be beaten with many stripes." Luke 12:43-47

I'm ready and waiting. And whatever comes I'm going to be looking for His return for His Bride.

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:2-3


 2007/2/14 20:46
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Pan-Tribbers UNITE!!!

hey sis jeanette
you know, the other day i saw JOhn hagee talking about how the 7 Churches mentioned in the Revelation indicate 7 Church ages with the last being the Laodicean age in which we're supposed to be. nowi didn't see the whole sermon but i wonder how he figured we'd be raptured if God told Laodicea He would spew them out if they didn't repent... :-? anyhow, to me it seems as though the final return of Christ will be at the same time as the rapture, i see them as the same thing because He is gathering together all His elect from all the four corners of the earth. the way Christ speaks to His disciples concerning the end times to me doesn't seem like He is telling them to expect a secret rapture but rather to gird their loins because they would be under persecution.

to me, we as the Church have a lot to answer for. indeed evil is expected of the world but we have enough dirt we need to repent of and be cleansed of before we can be raptured anywhere. if our Lord decides/has decided to use the trib for it then it will be so. Whether He uses the trib or not i guess doesn't matter, the bottom line is we are in need of serious correction. i fear that many people will be disappointed when the rapture doesn't happen, of course many pastors who propagated that message will have a lot of angry people on their hands. to me that is a big part of the great falling away. i don't get a sense that there will be any sweeping away of the Church before the final coming (Christ says nothing about coming secretly for the Church before the second coming) but then again i could be deceived in this matter.

at any rate this is not a thing over which i will part ways with any fellow believer because the bottom line is, if we are here or not, God's grace is sufficient for us all. We can all agree on that.


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/14 21:59Profile









 Re:

Quote:

Roniya wrote:
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13949&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Questions for those who don't believe in the rapture[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13886&forum=35]Rapture?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13622&forum=36#105598]The Secret Rapture Deception[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?mode=viewtopic&topic_id=13255&forum=36&start=30&viewmode=flat&order=1]The Rapture, Are you read?[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=13121&forum=36&start=10&viewmode=flat&order=1]Chronology of End Time events[/url]
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=12404&forum=44]The Rapture[/url]

Here are a 'few' of the discussions that have taken place on this.

[b]Thanks for those, will take a while to plough through them it seems! ;-)

Jeannette[/b]

 2007/2/15 15:26









 Re: Pan-Tribbers UNITE!!!

Quote:

IRONMAN wrote:
hey sis jeanette
you know, the other day i saw JOhn hagee talking about how the 7 Churches mentioned in the Revelation indicate 7 Church ages with the last being the Laodicean age in which we're supposed to be. nowi didn't see the whole sermon but i wonder how he figured we'd be raptured if God told Laodicea He would spew them out if they didn't repent... :-?

[b]Yes, I've heard that teaching too - think Watchman Nee believed it. But its never made much sense to me. It seems much more likely that the 7 churches ALL represent examples of churches that are also found today[/b]

Quote:
anyhow, to me it seems as though the final return of Christ will be at the same time as the rapture, i see them as the same thing because He is gathering together all His elect from all the four corners of the earth. the way Christ speaks to His disciples concerning the end times to me doesn't seem like He is telling them to expect a secret rapture but rather to gird their loins because they would be under persecution.


[b] It seems we agree here. The "secret Rapture" idea is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned, though my Preterist friend made quite a good case for it. He didn't however answer the question of how come not everyone in the world noticed Jesus return in AD 70? (He quoted some accounts of strange happenings or visions - such as voices in the Temple sayiung "let's go from this place" or something like that; and warriors or chariots in the clouds at the time of the Fall of Jerusalem, but not about Jesus Himself being seen). And he didn't answer what is going to happen if there isn't a "new heaven and a new earth" in the end. The old ones aren't going to last for ever, even if the Lord doesn't step in first.

That we in the Western nations are to expect persecution in the not to distant future seems obvious to me.[/b]
Quote:
to me, we as the Church have a lot to answer for. indeed evil is expected of the world but we have enough dirt we need to repent of and be cleansed of before we can be raptured anywhere. if our Lord decides/has decided to use the trib for it then it will be so. Whether He uses the trib or not i guess doesn't matter, the bottom line is we are in need of serious correction. i fear that many people will be disappointed when the rapture doesn't happen, of course many pastors who propagated that message will have a lot of angry people on their hands. to me that is a big part of the great falling away. i don't get a sense that there will be any sweeping away of the Church before the final coming (Christ says nothing about coming secretly for the Church before the second coming) but then again i could be deceived in this matter.

[b] I don't think so! See my comment above[/b]

Quote:
at any rate this is not a thing over which i will part ways with any fellow believer because the bottom line is, if we are here or not, God's grace is sufficient for us all. We can all agree on that.

[b] AMEN to that! [/b]

 2007/2/15 15:46
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re: Question on the Rapture


[color=000099]Rev 3:7-13 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth; I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name. Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee. [i][b]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/b][/i] Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, [which is] new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and [I will write upon him] my new name.He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. [/color]

[color=660033] Rev 3:14-22 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God; I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked: I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see. As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent. Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.[/color]

It is true that the seven churches represent seven ages in history. However, these churches have not all disappeared after the next appears. One of them represents Roman catholicism, and they are certainly amongst us today. The Philadelphian church is still with us today as well, she just isn't the most visible. Especially here in America, the vast majority of churches (non-catholic) fall into the Laodicean category.

Note that the Philadelphian church shall be kept from the day of temptation (trial). Also of note, this church is one of only two that the Lord did not rebuke. I truly believe that the true church as represented by the Philadelpians will be raptured before the tribulation. This is a warning to us all. We must examine our hearts and be sure we belong in this "faithful remnant" and not in the deceived Laodicean batch.

Thus you have the inerrent interpretation of scripture as taught by Doug :-)

Well, OK, there you have my take on the matter. Food for thought.

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/15 16:31Profile
lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Quote:

John173 wrote:
[b]Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.[/b]

Note that the Philadelphian church shall be kept from the day of temptation (trial). Also of note, this church is one of only two that the Lord did not rebuke. I truly believe that the true church as represented by the Philadelpians will be raptured before the tribulation. This is a warning to us all. We must examine our hearts and be sure we belong in this "faithful remnant" and not in the deceived Laodicean batch.



Hmm, Doug. Have you ever looked at the GREEK meaning of that word 'kept'? It simply means to guard or observe. The word 'kept' doesn't mean to remove. It means to observe brother.[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&strongs=5083&page=]Greek Word - Keep[/url]

If you look at the first pharse of the verse, without looking into the greek, you can see that the word means to 'observe'.

[b]Because thou hast [u]kept[/u] the word of my patience[/b], I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Or in a more comprehendable way (Joshua's translation, changing only 'kept'):

Because thou hast observed the word of my patience, I also will guard thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Amen. May God GUARD us, just like He guarded Noah.

 2007/2/15 17:43Profile









 Re: Question on the Rapture

Little Gift wrote:

Quote:
It seems we agree here. The "secret Rapture" idea is a definite no-no as far as I'm concerned, though my Preterist friend made quite a good case for it. He didn't however answer the question of how come not everyone in the world noticed Jesus return in AD 70?


There are two different schools of thought in Preterism. Full Preterism, and Partial Preterism. Alot of what the "Last Days", "The Time of the End", "The Latter Days", "The Latter Times" etc.. are very much behind us. Many interpret the bible as to what they see in the front page of their daily newspaper or what is piped in from CNN.

For instance; the prophecies in the Old Testement regarding the rebuilding of the Temple was prophecied for that time period, which you can read some of the history of that rebuilding in Ezra and Nehemiah. Haggai and Zacharia prophecy both the rebuilding of the temple THEN, and when Jesus Christ was coming to establish His Kingdom in men.

I am not mentioning the rapture here because alot of the rapture teachings comes from these ideas of prophecies. If we get the prophecies correct we will begin to have precept upon precept, line upon line.

A good starter point in all of this is Daniel 9:27, if you can get into your thinking that the "HE" that confirms the covenent with many for one week is none other than Jesus Christ, than you have just disspelled the concept that there is a future 7 year tribulation period.

If you can understand that, than your on your way to understanding that there is no such a thing as a Pretrib, Midtrib or Posttrib rapture teaching. Because that is where you get your 7 year tribulation in that one verse of Daniel 9:27.

Jeannette, your preterist friend is not that off base, you need to look at preterism in a 'Partial' light and not in the fullness. A good place to check this out would be a good brother of mine at [url=http://www.mikeblume.com/flash.htm]Mike Blume (click at the top Prophecy)[/url]

I used to believe in a Post Tribulation Rapture teaching, I taught it and ran with it, until I saw that Daniel 9:27 was Jesus Christ and not an Anti Christ coming to CONFIRM the covenant. All the other translations say something else, stick with the KJV.

God Bless as you seek TRUTH.

 2007/2/15 17:51









 Re:

This is the kind of thead you get when you become bored with the bible.

 2007/2/15 22:34
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

LittleGift

Quote:
Yes, I've heard that teaching too - think Watchman Nee believed it. But its never made much sense to me. It seems much more likely that the 7 churches ALL represent examples of churches that are also found today



well i agree with that. there are those who suffer, those who are likewarm and so on. perhaps there is a predominance of lukewarmness though.

i guess we disagree on whether or not the church is ripe for correction. i think we are and i praise God that He chastens as many as He loves!

either way, God will have His way.

God bless


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/15 22:40Profile





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