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Clutch
Member



Joined: 2003/11/10
Posts: 202
Oak Ridge, Tennessee

 Personal Responsibility

My friend Ron Bailey made a comment in a sermon that he preached on Justification. The statement was: " ...you are not responsible for what you don't know."

I disagree. Bummer.

To keep this as short as possible, my paraphrase of the first four books of Romans is that Paul talks about sin in mankind,certainty of Divine judgement, universality of guilt, purpose of the Law, and Righteousness by faith.

Then in Romans Chapter 5 Paul begins discussing justification which we obtain by faith through Jesus Christ. But, where I want to go with this is: What is the COMPETANT ADULT PERSON held accountable for?

I think by looking at a few verses in Romans 5, then maybe looking at one of those "laws of first mention", perhaps I might be able to succinctly express my point of view and give adequate reason for it.
Romans 5:12-14 says:"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

I think a point of contention with those who believe that man will not be judged for his ignorance is that before the law, sin could not be imputed or added to a persons account.That was because they didn't know that it was sin. Even though it was.

Well, I'd just like to say that because of Adam's poor judgement, the people that lived in ignorance of God, and His ways( from Adam to Moses) already had enough sin to send them to the second ressurection, and the Lake of Fire, at birth. Imputing more sin would not make a difference on that score. The light that God has given men in their conciences, leaves them without excuse; Romans 1:20.

Genesis Chapter 4 Contains the story of Cain and Able.
¶ And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.
4 And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof. And the LORD had respect unto Abel and to his offering:
5 But unto Cain and to his offering he had not respect. And Cain was very wroth, and his countenance fell.
6 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Why art thou wroth? and why is thy countenance fallen?
7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.
8 ¶ And Cain talked with Abel his brother: and it came to pass, when they were in the field, that Cain rose up against Abel his brother, and slew him.
9 ¶ And the LORD said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother’s keeper?
10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground.
11 And now art thou cursed from the earth, which hath opened her mouth to receive thy brother’s blood from thy hand;
12 When thou tillest the ground, it shall not henceforth yield unto thee her strength; a fugitive and a vagabond shalt thou be in the earth.

Question: Because the Law had not yet been established, and Cain did not know that "Thou Shalt not Murder" was he not held accoutable for what he did not know?

Actually Adam's first transgression was not taking the bite of the forbidden fruit. His first trangression was coming into agreement with a being (Satan) over the issue. Thereby, usurping God"s authority and nature in the earth.

This acqiuescence on Adam's part replaced God as supreme ruler on earth, and replaced Him with Satan. It was actually a lack of faith on Adam's part I believe that caused him to act as he did. Satan used a lie to deceive Eve, but it is written that Adam was not deceived.

I think Satan used a spirit of fear(losing Eve), which is the opposite of faith, to entice Adam to commit high treason and join the rebellion. I know that fear is a spirit because:
II Timothy 1:7 says " For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power (God the Holy Spirit), and of love( God the Father), and of a sound mind ( God the Word, who was manifest in the flesh, Jesus the Anointed one of Nazerath)" PARENTHESIS MINE.

If God doesn't give the spirit of fear then who does?


So, the fall of mankind due to original sin can be attributed, not necessarily to an overt act by a man. Actually it was the introduction of a "being" onto the earth that was given authority by a man who could give that authority. Adam transfered his dominion that had been give to him by God, over to Satan.

My understanding of Cain and Able is similar. When Cain offered his sacrafice to God, it was not accepted because it was not given in faith. Able's was,so it was accepted. I speculate that Cain had inherited a spirit of fear from his Daddy (a generational curse), and was fearful that God would reject him. Once Cain came into agreement with that ungodly spirit, that opened the door for other demonic forces to enter in, one of those being a spirit of Bitterness.

Bitterness has several issuses: unforgiveness,resentment,retaliation,anger/wrath,hatred,violence,and MURDER. That's why Hebrews 12:15 says:
" Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"


You can plainly see all of those issues manifesting in Cain. So, the fact that Cain did NOT KNOW that murdering his brother was a NO-NO; did THAT relieve him of the consequences of his actions?

Notice in Genesis 4:7 as God is speaking of Cain's sin He addresses it as you would "A BEING" (using pronouns like his and him, to identify the "BEING" that's waiting at the door). I'd like to take this concept a step further,and apply it to Born Again (todays Covenant people) believers.

Watch him girls he's going over the edge without a BUNGEE with THIS one! Might get into come serious Sacred Cow thumping here.

Could it be possible that WE are responsible for our ignorance in the area of what sin really is? Could it be, that as God say's "my people perish for lack of knowledge?" That word perish means to destroy, or eliminate. The opposite of SAVE. Are you SAVED?

Is it possible that Satan has God's people deceived into believing that they are not responsible for their ignorance in regard to these matters of the spirit?

They sure do reap the consequenses in addictions,disease(physical and mental),and early death.

I submit to your reasoning, that the Church (covenant people)today look no different in those maladys than does the world ( those not in covenant). According to III John 2, that should not be. Dangerous stuff here. A BRIDE WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH. Can you imagine?

In Deut. 28 (which was given to me for instruction in righteousness), it gives an outline of the blessings that a person living in covenant can expect. It also tells what a person not living in covenant can expect,which are Satans blessings. Which are curses.

For those in Traditional Denominations that don't believe that a Christian can be cursed, substitute the word blank for cursed. You'll get the idea.
I believe that we ARE responsible before God in our generations, Christian and non Christian alike. I believe that because of a decision Adam made, each individual person is born depraved ( there are exceptions and provision documented in the Bible for those without the capacity to understand and be responsible). That's NOT the issue here.

I believe THIS will happen after the second ressurection:
"11 ¶ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelaton 20:11-15.

I believe that the only way to get your name written into the "Book of Life" is documented in John 3.
"3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
If you never take responsibility for this part, when the time of Revelations 20 arrives NO ONE else will take resposiblility for your ignorance. Romans 1:20 says you're without excuse.

I also believe the Church of today needs to take special note of where it is written in Romans 14:
"For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but#1 RIGHTEOUSNESS, and#2 PEACE, and #3 joy in the Holy Ghost." In that order.

Oh Yeah! Hi Ron,welcome back from Scotland. Take two asprin and call Greg in the morning. :-P

Clutch :-)


_________________
Howard McNeill

 2004/3/7 21:53Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Personal Responsibility

Clutch writes My friend Ron Bailey made a comment in a sermon that he preached on Justification. The statement was: " ...you are not responsible for what you don't know."

Hi Clutch
This was a long post so this will need to be a long answer. I'm not sure which sermon you are referring to, but I generally add "unless you were supposed to know it". Six times the Lord challenged the Jews of his day with the phrase 'have you not read'. They had no excuse; The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law. Deuteronomy 29:29 The NKJV has captured this idea well in that famous verse Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; But happy is he who keeps the law. Proverbs 29:18. The people of Israel had no right to be ignorant; Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God, And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law; Romans 2:17,18. The Gentiles were ignorant of the law as given at Sinai. It was only revealed to people who were committed to obeying it; Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. Ex 19:5,6 It was only after they had agreed to this that God gave them the Commandments and the Judgments in Ex 20-23. It was because they 'knew' that God held them specially responsible; Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. Amos 3:1,2. Notice here that God holds Israel responsible for all their iniquities in a unique way, because they are the only family of the earth that God has known.

This may surprise some, but I don't believe the 10 commandments are applicable to the whole human race. There is a moral law behind them that I will address shortly but the 10 commandments were given expressly to Israel. They consitituted a 'tenancy agreement'. Keep these and you can stay in the land; infringe this agreement and you will be evicted. The other nations didn't know the 'name of the Jehovah thy God'. This commandment was addressed, not to whoever might stumble on the name of Jehovah, but to thou; the people who had already said 'yes' to the covenant. It was a collective agreement; all the commandments are addressed to Israel as a corporate entity under the word 'thou'. They 'accepted' this deal; they received the commandments and the judgments and were responsible for adhering to them. It was a mutual covenant with two copies; one in Moses handwriting which was the people's version and one in God's handwriting on stone. The two copies were kept together, one inside the ark the other by its side. [Ex 24:4,7 Deut 31:26] They had signed the document they would be held to its requirements. Have you ever noticed that Paul changed one of the commandments? Compare Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee. [Ex 20:12] with Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;) That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth. [Eph 6:1-3] The first instance is a tenancy agreement, the second is a promise of long life.

This is all to make the point that Israel was required to know what God had said, and so was held responsible for all transgression; all your iniquities. Incidentally this has a bearing on your 'generational curses'. The generational curses of Exodus 20:4-7 are directed to Israelites who became idolaters. As far as I know there is no reference to 'generational curses' for Gentiles. This is part of that unique responsibility and unique judgment mentioned in Amos 3:2 you only have I known of all familes of the earth therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities That Covenant has now been fulfilled and ended in Christ; I do not believe in 'generational curses', although I do see a case for 'generation consequences'.

But what of the Gentiles? They are responsible, not for the written law given to Israel at Sinai, but for the 'work of the law, written in their hearts' to which their conscience bears witness and their thoughts accuse or excuse. [Rom 2:15] The Sinai Law was a unique application of the 'work of the law written' in hearts. The 10 commandments was not a set of new ideas but a particular application of divine and moral law; it is the work of the law written in the heart made 'Israel specific'. The moral law is much older than Sinai. It was written in Cain's heart; he knew and was held reponsible for what he knew. It is written in the Borneo tribesman's heart and he is held responsible for what they know. And, we are responsible for thinking about these things so that our thoughts can 'accuse or excuse'. The Methodists used to teach that we are not only responsible for truth but for its progress. If we do not develop what God has given we shall be held responsible for the shortfall.

Oh, we are responsible certainly, but not for what we have not been told.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/3/11 4:54Profile
Delboy
Member



Joined: 2004/2/8
Posts: 199
Worthing UK

 Re:

High Clutch,I have to agree with Ron's last post on this and especially the last paragraph

Quote:
But what of the Gentiles? They are responsible, not for the written law given to Israel at Sinai, but for the 'work of the law, written in their hearts' to which their conscience bears witness and their thoughts accuse or excuse. [Rom 2:15] The Sinai Law was a unique application of the 'work of the law written' in hearts. The 10 commandments was not a set of new ideas but a particular application of divine and moral law; it is the work of the law written in the heart made 'Israel specific'. The moral law is much older than Sinai. It was written in Cain's heart; he knew and was held reponsible for what he knew. It is written in the Borneo tribesman's heart and he is held responsible for what they know. And, we are responsible for thinking about these things so that our thoughts can 'accuse or excuse'. The Methodists used to teach that we are not only responsible for truth but for its progress. If we do not develop what God has given we shall be held responsible for the shortfall.


what do you think bro? :-)


_________________
derek Eyre

 2004/3/13 6:23Profile





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