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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God & Time & Predestination advice please

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strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 God & Time & Predestination advice please

Hi ive struggled for 25 years as a Christian,most of that time being back slidden..Due to this i'm pretty muddled! I seem to have a hard time nailing down facts,one second i'm believing it the next questioning..

The main problem i have is predestination..I can't handle the fact that God still create us,knowing who will not be saved..

My friend said this:God is outside of time and is the IAM..Hense what i did yesterday tomorrow or even next year God knows all at one time..That we think God see's things as a long list of events,but He is really Hit with all the information at once.. I don't think this is open theism,hes not saying God doesn't know the future, just that he knows it at exactly the same time as He knows the past..That scripture talks about knowing the future is God explaining infinite into finite..

what u think?

andy



sorry for my Grammar


_________________
andy

 2007/2/6 9:01Profile
JennRich
Member



Joined: 2006/7/17
Posts: 140
Alabama

 Re: God & Time & Predestination advice please

It takes God-given faith to receive the truth of predestination. But once you do, and you know you belong to Him, it gives incredible security.

Once when a man asked Jesus how he could be saved, Jesus replied that he had to be "born from above." We cannot "choose" our earthly family, can we (our blood family)? We had absolutely nothing to do with being born to our parents. This great illustration, seen over and over in life, is (I believe) given to us to show that God Himself has His own children, placed here on earth for a time, the wheat among the tares (read Mark 13:27).

As my pastor said last Sunday, "We must repent of our sins and believe on Him in order to receive salvation -- but even that is under the umbrella of God's sovereignty and design." (Here's a link if you want to download his sermon.) http://www.fbcms.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=154&Itemid=108

I was referring specifically to the Sunday, Feb. 4 sermon (p.m. service).

Romans 9:11 says "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls".

I'm so glad that God is bigger than our brains -- we can never figure Him out. If we had a God that we could fully understand, we would be able to put Him in a box and He wouldn't be God at all.


_________________
Jennifer Richardson

 2007/2/6 9:49Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re: God & Time & Predestination advice please

Hey Andy,

God has foreknowledge of our decisions, but at not time does God make those decisions for us. He has given us the freedom to love Him or not. We can choose to love God, or choose to not love God. Because God is greater than time, knowing all things, He knows our choice before we have made it. However, we choose to love God by our own choice.

I often think of God as the master chess player. A good chess player knows His opponents moves from the beginning of the game. A good chess player plans his entire strategy from the first move. Likewise, God who knows all things, planned all of His moves from the very beginning.

One of the things we must settle upon in this matter is God's love for us. It is God's Will that we live forever with Him in Heaven. This is what God wants for everyone. He does not want any person to die.

This is affirmed in the bible:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

God's Will is eternal. This means from before time until after time, the desire of God's heart is the same. God has always and will always want us to be live with Him forever in love. However, love is not something that can be forced. Though God loves us, we must choose to love Him.

When a person decides they do not want to love God in return, this creates a huge problem. If we don't love God, we are defying His Will. We are rejecting God's love.

To defy God's Will is a most serious offense. God eternally wants us to share in love. However, when we reject that love, we are eternally rejecting God's love. This creates a huge problem. God loves us....we reject God. The end result is Hell.

It was God's desire and will to create every person for love. God never changes. God will never change His mind. For all eternity, God will always want us to exist for His love.

So, fully knowing that some people would reject God and these people would not be saved, God still created them. God wants them to be saved. He will always want them to be saved. These people are not saved because of their own choice. They reject God's salvation. They reject God's love. As a result, God gives them what they want. They do not want to be with God, so God sends them to a place where He is not. They goto Hell.

God did not predestine anyone for Hell. God predestined everyone for Heaven. However, God has also given us the freedom to choose. A person goes to Heaven or Hell because of their own choice. This is most significant. We must always remember this. We are held accountable.

I hope this helps,

May Jesus open your eyes to truth,

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/2/6 10:51Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
The main problem i have is predestination..I can't handle the fact that God still create us,knowing who will not be saved..



It doesn't seem fair, but we must remember that this 'fairness' is out of our human mindset. The truth is, for God to be completely fair He would send us all to Hell because we have fallen short of the glory of God. It is a testimony to God's mercy and grace that He has chosen before the world began, certain people to be His special possession.

Quote:
My friend said this:God is outside of time and is the I AM..Hense what i did yesterday tomorrow or even next year God knows all at one time..That we think God see's things as a long list of events,but He is really Hit with all the information at once.. I don't think this is open theism,hes not saying God doesn't know the future, just that he knows it at exactly the same time as He knows the past..That scripture talks about knowing the future is God explaining infinite into finite..




God is eternal. That sentence is hard to understand completely. It is like trying to determine where the universe ends. Does the universe go on forever? If not, what is at the end of the universe? Is there a brick wall that says 'END'? If so, what is on the other side of the wall? Questions like these are beyond our comprehension. God is eternal. We know this to be true because that is what Scripture teaches.

God is:
Omnipotent - All powerful. This does not mean that God can do all things, but that He can do everything that is consistant with His nature. Isaiah 46:8-11, "Remember this and stand firm, recall it to mind, you transgressors, remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose,' calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of my counsel from a far country. I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it." An example of God not being able to do something is For example, God cannot lie. (Hebrews 6:18)

Omnipresent - God is Everywhere. God is at all places at all times. This is not to say that He is only partially present everywhere, but He is fully present at all places at all times. This is why David said in Psalm 139:7-12, "Where shall I go from your Spirit? Or where shall I flee from your presence? If I ascend to heaven, you are there! If I make my bed in Sheol, you are there! If I take the wings of the morning and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there your hand shall lead me, and your right hand shall hold me. If I say, "Surely the darkness shall cover me, and the light about me be night," even the darkness is not dark to you; the night is bright as the day, for darkness is as light with you."

Omniscience God is not only everywhere and all powerful, but He also knows all things. The above verses in Isaiah tell us that God declares the end from the beginning and even things not yet done.

 2007/2/6 11:50Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

bennblake,

I have read your post and I have some disagreements with it. Please know that I submit the following in humility and with the desire to have an edifying conversation. My disagreement is not with you personally but just with some of your writing. I pray that both of us (and others who are reading) would grow closer to Christ as a result of our discussion.

Quote:
God has foreknowledge of our decisions, but at not time does God make those decisions for us. He has given us the freedom to love Him or not. We can choose to love God, or choose to not love God. Because God is greater than time, knowing all things, He knows our choice before we have made it. However, we choose to love God by our own choice.



I agree that God does have foreknowledge of our decisions. I however must disagree with your assertion that God chooses based upon our choice. This is just not Biblical. It is simply a means to explain the many passages in scripture that speak about God choosing us and we being His chosen people. For example let’s take 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15,
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

Clearly, it is God who chooses and it is God who calls. But, some people don’t like what this verse says and they simply try to ‘explain it away’ and make it say something it does not. Here is how some wish to reword these verses:
“But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation [because He saw that you would be wise enough to make a decision to have faith] through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you [every single person on the Earth]by our gospel, to the obtaining [so that they might have a chance to be wise enough to obtain themselves] of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.”

Quote:
I often think of God as the master chess player. A good chess player knows His opponents moves from the beginning of the game. A good chess player plans his entire strategy from the first move. Likewise, God who knows all things, planned all of His moves from the very beginning.



This is [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_knowledge]Molinism[/url] and it has been around since the 16th Century. I am not accusing you of being a Molinist, but your example of the chess player is very similar. It is popular today by those who wish to hold on to man’s free will but maintain God’s sovereignty. It is popular but not Biblical.

Quote:
One of the things we must settle upon in this matter is God's love for us. It is God's Will that we live forever with Him in Heaven. This is what God wants for everyone. He does not want any person to die.

This is affirmed in the bible:

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.



In your understanding of 2 Peter 3:9, God will never come because He is always waiting for people to come to repentance on their own free will. This is a problem because people are constantly being born and coming into the age of accountability. God would be eternally being patient because He doesn’t want anyone to perish. You must admit that God would have to be patient until a certain point. But what point would that be?
The proper context of 2 Peter 3:9 is that God is patient with the elect waiting for them to come to repentance. In this understanding, there will come a day when all of the elect will come to repentance and therefore God’s patience will end.

Quote:
God's Will is eternal. This means from before time until after time, the desire of God's heart is the same. God has always and will always want us to be live with Him forever in love. However, love is not something that can be forced. Though God loves us, we must choose to love Him.



Does God this apply to those who are in hell? Does God still desire for them to be with Him?

Quote:
When a person decides they do not want to love God in return, this creates a huge problem. If we don't love God, we are defying His Will. We are rejecting God's love.



A person does not one day decide they do not want to love God. They naturally do not want to love God. Romans 6:7-8, “For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.”

Quote:
To defy God's Will is a most serious offense. God eternally wants us to share in love. However, when we reject that love, we are eternally rejecting God's love. This creates a huge problem. God loves us....we reject God. The end result is Hell.

It was God's desire and will to create every person for love. God never changes. God will never change His mind. For all eternity, God will always want us to exist for His love.



Does this also apply to Pharaoh? Romans 9:14-18
“What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.”

Quote:
So, fully knowing that some people would reject God and these people would not be saved, God still created them. God wants them to be saved. He will always want them to be saved. These people are not saved because of their own choice. They reject God's salvation. They reject God's love. As a result, God gives them what they want. They do not want to be with God, so God sends them to a place where He is not. They go to Hell.



If God knows that a person will never become a Christian, why does He continue to bring conviction in the hopes that they would repent?

Quote:
God did not predestine anyone for Hell.


Agreed. God predestines some to be conformed into the image of His Son and the others He leaves alone in their natural state of being His enemy.

Quote:
God predestined everyone for Heaven.


This is unbiblical. Romans 8:29-30 says that all who are foreknown are predestined. All who are predestined are also called, and those whom He called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. If God predestined everyone for Heaven, then everyone would be in Heaven.

Quote:
However, God has also given us the freedom to choose. A person goes to Heaven or Hell because of their own choice. This is most significant. We must always remember this. We are held accountable.



We do have the right to choose. However, we only choose to disobey God until we are regenerated. It is after regeneration that we even have the capacity to obey God and choose Christ. We are held accountable because of our actions and all unrighteousness will be punished.

 2007/2/6 13:39Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi all you guys are a lot more intellectual then me so my post are going to be simple..

to me if God knows what i'm going to do, i cant see how i wont do it?? with that said i have read post on that before..I don't want to bore people..

I was more interested in the theory that God knows all things at once,is that heresy like open theism? It makes sense to me anddddd makes me happier with God..LOL i know big of me

andy

ps i will check the sermon out thks


_________________
andy

 2007/2/6 14:11Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Here is a good read for you about Open Theism.

http://www.founders.org/FJ46/article2_fr.html

 2007/2/6 14:22Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi Jay i see nothing in ur post that would go against what my friend said..

i.e Omnipotent Omnipresent Omniscience

He can still be all these with his example..He would be IAM

andy


_________________
andy

 2007/2/6 14:26Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Jay i don't think my friends idea was open theism hes not saying God doesn't know the future..Thks for the link though :-)

edited maybe i should read the link and see what they do believe :-?


_________________
andy

 2007/2/6 14:28Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I do not think your friend is talking about Open Theism.

 2007/2/6 14:31Profile





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