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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Concerning righteousness which is by faith

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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
However, ultimately it is a heart issue, correct? John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



Again, it requires both.

You still haven't dealt with how your position can be reconciled with Romans 10. Is the gospel necessary for salvation or not?

Also, how does your position reconcile with these verses?
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Act 17:30-31)
Clearly the heart and soul of the repentance message is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing about Christ.

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/2/7 9:07Profile









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
However, ultimately it is a heart issue, correct? John 12:40 (KJV) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



Again, it requires both.

You still haven't dealt with how your position can be reconciled with Romans 10. Is the gospel necessary for salvation or not?



Sure I have. You just don't see it yet.

Quote:
Also, how does your position reconcile with these verses?
And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
(Act 17:30-31)



What does the word repent mean except to change direction? Certainly it can mean, if you don't hell's fire awaits you. But lets assume for sake of discussing this that these are righteous folk being addressed here and God, because of their ignorance/incomplete knowledge, could only wink at their hearts condition concerning a couple of issues that included marriage.

Quote:
Clearly the heart and soul of the repentance message is the resurrection of Jesus Christ. Faith comes by hearing about Christ.



Now it does for sure, but back then? Can't you see that is the reason for God "winking"?

Define salvation as Paul speaks of it after one is born again .... for that matter after one is saved.

Peace,,Orm

 2007/2/7 9:27
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Sure I have. You just don't see it yet.



On that we can agree, I just don't see it. You don't truly engage the point in question and then say, "don't you see it?". I'm baffled by this line of reasoning.

Quote:
What does the word repent mean except to change direction? Certainly it can mean, if you don't hell's fire awaits you. [b]But lets assume[/b] for sake of discussing this that these are righteous folk being addressed here and God, because of their ignorance/incomplete knowledge, could only wink at their hearts condition concerning a couple of issues that included marriage.



Your assumption is faulty. I would encourage you to read the whole of Acts chapter 17 to get the context. Are you arguing that a people "wholly given to idolatry" were righteous?


In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/2/7 10:15Profile









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
Sure I have. You just don't see it yet.



On that we can agree, I just don't see it. You don't truly engage the point in question and then say, "don't you see it?". I'm baffled by this line of reasoning.

Quote:
What does the word repent mean except to change direction? Certainly it can mean, if you don't hell's fire awaits you. [b]But lets assume[/b] for sake of discussing this that these are righteous folk being addressed here and God, because of their ignorance/incomplete knowledge, could only wink at their hearts condition concerning a couple of issues that included marriage.



Your assumption is faulty. I would encourage you to read the whole of Acts chapter 17 to get the context. Are you arguing that a people "wholly given to idolatry" were righteous?


In Christ,

Ron



You are baffled and then accuse. That's an oxymoronic remark and says much.

I'm not going to argue with you. I gave you what I have to say in the matter.
If you don't agree with me that's you perogative. It's truth to me and violates nothing of the scripture. If you study them properly you will come to the same conclusion.

 2007/2/7 11:11
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
I'm not going to argue with you. I gave you what I have to say in the matter. If you don't agree with me that's you perogative. It's truth to me and violates nothing of the scripture. If you study them properly you will come to the same conclusion.



This is the heart of the problem, you assume a position but refuse to argue it. This is not logical.

Your arguments are all ad hominem, you argue against the person and not against his/her argument.

If we are to continue in this discussion I would ask that you argue the points that have been raised both by myself and Dorcas and not just say, "study them properly and you will come to the same conclusion."

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/2/7 11:37Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Ormly wrote

Quote:
We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.



This is heretical. You are saying that people are saved by Christ even if they have never heard of Christ. This is bordering on religious pluralism.

Ormly wrote
Quote:
If I realize there is God and live righteously believing in that God, though I know not his name, am I damned?



False assumption. You believe that it is possible to live righteously before God even though you know nothing about Him or what He requires.

Quote:
Doesn't the Blood of Jesus Christ not apply to me; make peace for me in my behalf because I am living a righteous life as best I can with what little knowledge I possess about there even being a God? BTW, I am held accountable for whatever knowledge I may possess of Him.... unto a righteousness.



This may sound nice but it is not Biblical. Nowhere in scripture does it support the notion that Jesus atones for those who do not know Him. No one will go to Heaven simply because they believe God exists. Demons believe God exists and they tremble.

JayHill wrote
Quote:
So the question is if there is a muslim man who loves his wife, takes care of the poor, and has a love for God, but has never heard of Jesus before, get thrown into hell?



Ormly replied
Quote:
My understanding of the scriptures tells me, no.



Ormly I am disappointed in your response. The truth of scripture tells us in John 14:6, "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
You are speaking on meriting Heaven when you discuss being a good person who takes care of the poor and a love for God. Salvation is through Christ alone.

JayHill wrote:
Quote:
And if a man grows up in this country and receives Jesus as his personal Savior(perhaps several times), but doesn't really love his wife, the poor, and has a difficult time following God(with all his heart, soul and strength) get into heaven?



Faith without works is dead.

And finally, the post that sums up any discussion with Bro. Ormly:
InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
If we are to continue in this discussion I would ask that you argue the points that have been raised both by myself and Dorcas and not just say, "study them properly and you will come to the same conclusion."



Amen. Ormly, please take heed to what your brothers and sisters are telling you on this forum and change your style of debating. I ask you to consider not just my words but everyone elses who have warned you about this.

 2007/2/7 12:00Profile









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
I'm not going to argue with you. I gave you what I have to say in the matter. If you don't agree with me that's you perogative. It's truth to me and violates nothing of the scripture. If you study them properly you will come to the same conclusion.



This is the heart of the problem, you assume a position but refuse to argue it. This is not logical.




No. I refuse to go circular with you or keep responding to your endless questions that will result in "0". All you really wish to do is point out what you believe my error is using canned doctrine. I ain't goin to be drawn into that. Sorry.

 2007/2/7 13:21









 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Ormly wrote
Quote:
We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.



This is heretical. You are saying that people are saved by Christ even if they have never heard of Christ. This is bordering on religious pluralism.




No. Are you saying His blood doesn't cover the sins of the righteous in the world who never have the opportunity to receive the gospel of the news of the Kingdom of God? Keep in mind, it is the Blood of Jesus we speak of, not His words that some will never hear who live righteously because of their belief in God, whoever they believe Him to be......and if you can't keep that in mind we will end this discussion.

Ro 1:18 KJV
 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

If that can be said of the unrighteous, what of the righteous?
   
In the future, if there is to be one, kindly spare me your condension, youngster. I've been where your are.

 2007/2/7 13:38
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Are you saying His blood doesn't cover the sins of the righteous in the world who never have the opportunity to receive the gospel of the news of the Kingdom of God?



This phrase is mind-boggling because you are insinuating that there are righteous people in this world who have never heard the gospel of Christ.

This is not Biblical and is heretical. Yes, the blood of Christ covers the sins of the righteous. But, the blood does not cover an adult who has never heard the gospel.

You are saying that there are people in this world who are saved but have not heard about Christ. You state that they worship God with the limited knowledge they possess. Can these people be Hindu, Muslim, Mormon, etc.?

Ormly, as your brother in Christ I must tell you that you have strayed from sound doctrine in this thinking.

 2007/2/7 13:56Profile
PreachParsly
Member



Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
All you really wish to do is point out what you believe my error is using canned doctrine.



How do you know what he "really wishes to do?"

Quote:
In the future, if there is to be one, kindly spare me your condension, youngster. I've been where your are.



Why are you talking to people like this? Are you being condescending to him because he isn't as old as you are or believe what you do? I hope you are not. If you are you are being childish.


_________________
Josh Parsley

 2007/2/7 13:58Profile





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