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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Concerning righteousness which is by faith

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InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re: Concerning righteousness which is by faith

Quote:
*We are brought into salvation by the gift of God's Grace. The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation, by his faith in God. Redemption for the righteous man, both in the OT and NT is nevertheless still by Jesus Christ.



I must agree with Dorcas' concerns with this statement quoted above and her comments are not out of context. Why not address her concerns instead of just waving a dismissing hand?

Also, how does your comment quoted above harmonize with the following Scripture...
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. (Rom 10:13-17)

Until people have heard and believed in the true God they are calling on idols. How shall they believe if they have not heard? Is not the gospel necessary for salvation?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/2/6 16:32Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Until people have heard and believed in the true God they are calling on idols. How shall they believe if they have not heard? Is not the gospel necessary for salvation?



Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.

If I realize there is God and live righteously believing in that God, though I know not his name, am I damned? Doesn't the Blood of Jesus Chtist not apply to me; make peace for me in my behalf because I am living a righteous life as best I can with what little knowledge I possess about there even being a God? BTW, I am held accountable for whatever knowledge I may possess of Him.... unto a righteousness.

Jesus never told the Disciples to go into all the world and get people saved. He told them to make disciples of the nations. Think about that part of it before replying to say, I am wrong.

 2007/2/6 19:13









 Re:

Quote:

dorcas wrote:

Hi Ormly,

I'm not sure how my challenge to a section of your opening post, can be 'totally out of context'.

Also, can justify the core thought you propose

[color=000099]'The righteous man who never heard of the need to have faith in Jesus Christ [b]is nevertheless gifted with the same salvation[/b], by his faith in God.'[/color]

with supporting scripture? Or the statement cannot stand as one of [u]eternal truth[/u].


The main difficulty I have with what you are saying, is that a man can be righteous [i]enough[/i], without having taken upon himself, the righteousness of Christ.

1 Corinthians 1 (KJV)
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

31 That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.



Man doesn't take upon himself the righteousness of Christ for the sin of Adam he had nothing to do with. The crucified Jesus presented Himself, on man's behalf, to the Father in regards to that which brought reconcilation, which only He could accomplish. "It is Finished", I believe were His words..

Having said that, regenerated man is now to take the righteousness of Son of God. Gal. 2.20 should explain that better than I can.

 2007/2/6 19:24
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Man doesn't take upon himself the righteousness of Christ for the sin of Adam he had nothing to do with.



So then how does sin come into the human race?
Also death must be reversed.
Romans 5:12 Wherefore, [b]as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:[/b]

We've been through this before, all means all. Anyone not under the blood of Christ is not forgiven, and will face the wrath of God just like those who did not apply the blood during the Passover.

You also are applying verses specifically meant for the Church, and believers to unbeleivers. None of the promises that apply to those in Christ such as peace with God, justification, promise of heaven are to those outside of Christ.
We've been through this once before brother. I do not know what your motive is, but I am not the only one who has tried to say that you are misinterpreting the Scriptures to uphold a universal atonement view(the blood was shed for everyone, thus they are saved) whereas the Bible shows that only those who believe will be saved thus limiting the atonement.
Now don't go calling me a Calvinist as we have been down that road before, and I have told you my stance, but just admit that the atonement is only benefitial to those who believe that CHrist died for them, and bore their sin.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/2/6 19:55Profile
InTheLight
Member



Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2779
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.



This sounds spiritual but it is not true. It requires both, for how can the heart truly believe in what the mind is not convinced of?

In Christ,

Ron


_________________
Ron Halverson

 2007/2/6 20:11Profile









 Re:

Quote:

InTheLight wrote:
Quote:
Salvation is a heart issue, not a head issue.



This sounds spiritual but it is not true. It requires both, for how can the heart truly believe in what the mind is not convinced of?

In Christ,

Ron




However, ultimately it is a heart issue, correct?

John 12:40 (KJV)
He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.



 2007/2/6 20:51
JayHil
Member



Joined: 2007/1/25
Posts: 4


 Re:

So what are we asking here? If I am born in a "Christian" nation to "Christian" parents, and I recieve Christ as my savior, doesn't it seem that I have a slight advantage at getting to heaven over someone who is born in a muslim nation to muslim parents? If I was to switch places with that person who is to say I wouldn't be on the outside looking in?
So the question is if there is a muslim man who loves his wife, takes care of the poor, and has a love for God, but has never heard of Jesus before, get thrown into hell? And if a man grows up in this country and recieves Jesus as his personal Savior(perhaps several times), but doesn't really love his wife, the poor, and has a difficult time following God(with all his heart, soul and strength) get into heaven?
I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?

 2007/2/6 21:30Profile
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

"I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?"
well lets look at scripture..
Let see why a person is judged and condemed to hell. Rom 2.13 ("For not the hears of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified") The reason a person goes to hell is because he breaks GOD'S HOLY LAW. not becuase he is born in a certain country or comes from a certain back ground. Now the only way a man could get into heaven is if he never broke God's law(10 commendments) then he would be considerd right with God. Now God's law has been given to every creature in the world Please read romans 2.13-15. but there is a big problem...all the world is guilty before God and none are right with God. Read Rom 3.10-20


_________________
andy

 2007/2/6 23:24Profile









 Re:

Quote:

andres wrote:
"I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?"
well lets look at scripture..
Let see why a person is judged and condemed to hell. Rom 2.13 ("For not the hears of the law are just before God but the doers of the law shall be justified") The reason a person goes to hell is because he breaks GOD'S HOLY LAW. not becuase he is born in a certain country or comes from a certain back ground. Now the only way a man could get into heaven is if he never broke God's law(10 commendments) then he would be considerd right with God. Now God's law has been given to every creature in the world Please read romans 2.13-15. but there is a big problem...all the world is guilty before God and none are right with God. Read Rom 3.10-20



Please place your last in proper context because David was a man after God's heart. Don't assume that God gave him one so that it could be one. That doesn't compute. Read psalm 14,53. David was speaking of certain conditions he was referring to when crying out to God. Define those conditions and you will see why God rescued and why God enslaved and why God even punished the enslavers. In none of this were men robots except to their "self" natures they loved more than they feared God. God they feared until their bellies were filled and the goodtimes rolled. Then they would forget God and go the own way once again, to their own destruction.

 2007/2/7 8:37









 Re:

Quote:

JayHil wrote:
So what are we asking here? If I am born in a "Christian" nation to "Christian" parents, and I recieve Christ as my savior, doesn't it seem that I have a slight advantage at getting to heaven over someone who is born in a muslim nation to muslim parents? If I was to switch places with that person who is to say I wouldn't be on the outside looking in?
So the question is if there is a muslim man who loves his wife, takes care of the poor, and has a love for God, but has never heard of Jesus before, get thrown into hell?



My understanding of the scriptures tells me, no.

Quote:
And if a man grows up in this country and recieves Jesus as his personal Savior(perhaps several times), but doesn't really love his wife, the poor, and has a difficult time following God(with all his heart, soul and strength) get into heaven?



I am compelled to say, I don't know..... but neither would I want to be in his shoes in that day when all stand before Christ, to give an account.
Much of the reason for this man's condition is because of an incomplete message of the gospel preached, even wrong would not be an over "the top", criticism. The complete message of the gospel is for bringing son's unto the Father....not just "saved" folk who don't know Him to love Him, as He desires --no! commands-- we do. That's from revelation of Him and no other way can it be accomplished.
If I said you can build a solid foundation on a crooked footing, what would that mean/say to you?

Quote:
I'm not really all that wise on these kind of things so what is a really good biblical answer to these questions if I'm an unsaved person?



Thanks for the sincerity of your questions in this. They are two good ones that need to addressed but from scripture only and not from pre-programed pat answers offered up by man's reasoning, most of which we have lived with for too many years.

Here's something that I saw and wrote out when pondering some of what you have asked:

01-2006 The Lord Jesus Christ is the first and the last. We were in Him at the first and will be in Him at the last. Between the first and the last we are in the world to become [a son]. The first and the last, He is responsible. The in-between is our responsibility. It is given to us to become as He was in His flesh. Without a vision of the last, we will not become that which is purposed by the Father. The vision of the last is implanted in us from the first. A revelation of the first, the Christ of Glory, brings the vision of the last that will sustain the in-between... which is now. The vision is the understanding of His Grace; the overflowing of His Nature.

 2007/2/7 9:02





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