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John173
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re: Would you use the word hell? (Please Help)

Think about this:

[color=0000CC]Luke 22:39-44 And he came out, and went, as he was wont, to the mount of Olives; and his disciples also followed him.

And when he was at the place, he said unto them, Pray that ye enter not into temptation.

And he was withdrawn from them about a stone's cast, and kneeled down, and prayed,

Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done.

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengthening him.

And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.[/color]

Jesus had such an understanding of the suffering He was about to endure that He prayed for release from the necessity of drinking that cup with so much fervency that it caused the capillaries in His face to burst.

The accounts of His physical torments leading up to the cross are enough to make me shudder. If I knew that were facing me I might pray this hard too. This is to say nothing of the physical torment He endured on the cross itself.

In spite of that, this is not the suffering He was agonizing over. It was indeed the seperation from His Father that caused Him such travail. Call it what you will, this was hellish to Him.

Praise His Holy Name. The degree of this sacrifice is one we simply cannot comprehend, not in this life, perhaps not even in eternity.

In His Love

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/2/6 16:17Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Hey TJ,

There are a great many people who will disagree with me on this. I am sure after I post this, they will be sure to respond.

However, I suggest before you read any further, you pray and empty yourself to Christ. Let Him guide you in this. That way, Christ will help you to see what is right despite what I say.

Your question is in reference to when Jesus cried out on the cross, "My gods, my gods, why have you forsaken me?"

There are several things I would like to point out:

1) Jesus said this right before His death. It epitomizes the extreme suffering and agony He was enduring.

2) Jesus did not say, "My father." Instead, He said, "My Gods." Obviously, the God of Jesus is His Father. However, what this illustrates is that Jesus was crying from His Soul, rather than His Spirit. He wasn't suffering in Spirit, rather in His Soul. This is important, and I will explain why further down.

3) Both Mark and Matthew make a point of quoting this in Hebrew. Why? Everything else that Jesus said was quoted in greek. Why would they state this one thing in Hebrew and then translate it? Quite obviously, because Jesus said this in Hebrew. They were trying to point out that in the moment, Jesus specifically spoke Hebrew. But why would Jesus do this?

The cry Jesus made was prophesied about by King David. This cry is the cry of Zion. Jesus was born of the bloodline of David. He is a descendant of David, King of the Jews. When Jesus cried out in agony, He was crying on behalf of all Jews. This is important. I will explain this further as we continue.

4) Jesus cried out in agony. However, does that mean He was really forsaken? If so, in what sense? What Jesus forsaken by the Father? How so?

Obviously, while Jesus was alive and breathing, He was not forsaken. When Adam had sinned in the garden, He was separated from God. He became a new being. This separation caused all humanity to be born into sin. Despite what we do, we are born with the disease of sin.

If Christ was forsaken at any moment on the cross, then He would have been filled with sin. How then could Jesus be a perfect sacrifice? Paul would later say that Jesus became sin for us. However, this does not mean that Jesus was filled with sin. Rather, Jesus suffered the agony of sin. Jesus was without sin at all times even unto death. He is God.

During the three hours of darkness (Matthew 27:45) that Jesus hung on the cross, some say the Jesus was forsaken by the Father. Again, I ask, how can this be? Only Hell is such a place. How could Jesus be in Hell and on earth simultaneously for 3 hours?

In another sense, Christ was forsaken on the cross because the Lord allowed Him to die. Jesus had eternal life. He was without sin. We all age and die because of sin. However, Jesus had no sin. Therefore, Christ would have had to be forsaken by the Father to fall unto death.

However, because Christ had eternal life, He paid the eternal debt. We deserved Hell. Christ died. The debt was paid. That is why Jesus turned to the criminal hanging next to him, and said "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." Jesus did not enter Hell, rather Jesus went to paradise.

However, this leaves many questions to what happened. To better understand what happened when Jesus cried in agony, let us review the prophecies surrounding this event.

King David prophesied of this event in Psalms 22. I encourage you to read it through entirely. However, I wish to highlight a few things. David clearly indicates the suffering of Jesus is due to the darkness of the world surrounding Him. David says in verses 11-20 (All scripture is from NIV), "Many bulls surround me; strong bulls of Bashan encircle me. Roaring lions tearing their prey open their mouths wide against me. I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint. My heart has turned to wax; it has melted away within me. My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth; you lay me in the dust of death. Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. I can count all my bones; people stare and gloat over me. They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing."

However, David also makes it clear that while His soul is in agony, He has not been forsaken. In verse 24 says "For he has not despised or disdained the suffering of the afflicted one; he has not hidden his face from him but has listened to his cry for help."

When Jesus cried out, "Why have you forsaken me," he was mocked. He was crying for help. In this verse, it establishes that God heard his cry. Jesus died for God's glory. In addition, Jesus was raised for God's glory. Jesus paid our debt for sin, but was raised to new life so that He may bring new life to those who repent.

This is echoed in Psalms 16:10 where David says, "because you will not abandon me to the grave, nor will you let your Holy One see decay." David's bodied decayed years before Christ. However, Jesus was in the tomb for only three days. This verse was prophesying. Jesus did not see decay. In addition, the word "abandon" here is the same word as "forsaken." Jesus was not left to decay. Though He died, He was raised.

Though Jesus was raised, and God did not forsake Him, Jesus did suffer tremendously. This is established in Isaiah 53. I suggest reading this to fully understand the depth of Christ's sufferings. However, I would like to point out a few things. In verse 4, it says, "yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted" Then immediately in verse 5, it says, "But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities." We considered him afflicted by God, but he was pierced for our transgressions. This means that while Jesus suffered willingly, he did not hurt himself. It was our sin that hurt Christ. Our sin caused His pain. Though God is the creator of all things, even of suffering, Christ suffered due to our sin. This is important because some people say God committed suicide. God did not. Jesus suffered and died for our sin. This means that our sin killed him. His death is the fault of every sinner.

In verse 11, it says, "After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied." On the cross, Jesus suffered in His soul. This is important to know and realize. Jesus was not separated from the Holy Spirit. Jesus, being perfect in all ways, suffered in His Soul, but had joy in His Spirit. This may seem contradictory, but it is not. Jesus desired to do God's will and delighted in it. However, the soul of Jesus was born of flesh. He suffered agony in His soul. He was crushed. This truth is also highlighted by Jesus suffering in Gethsemane the night before. Jesus said the spirit is willing, but the body is weak.

When Jesus cried out in suffering, He was crying not for His sake, but for His people. He was crying for Zion. This is clearly indicated by Isaiah 49:13-17 "Shout for joy, O heavens; rejoice, O earth; burst into song, O mountains! For the Lord comforts his people and will have compassion on his afflicted ones. But Zion said, 'The Lord has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.' Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me."

So Jesus cried out on behalf of God's people saying, "My gods, my gods, why have you forsaken me?" On the cross, Jesus suffered so much that He felt forsaken. He felt as though He were left alone. The earth was consumed by darkness. His enemies had surrounded Him. He was crushed because of our sin. In one sense, He was forsaken. He died on the cross, without any sin, but like a sinner. He was numbered with transgressors. However, Jesus was not left to rot in the grave. He was raised to new life. He overcame death. His cry was heard, and was answered. In this way, Jesus was not forsaken. God had delivered His people through the death and resurrection of His Son.

I hope this helps,

In love,
Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/2/6 16:19Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i don't have the answer, but i just have to ask because i don't get this...

Quote:

beenblake wrote:
So Jesus cried out on behalf of God's people saying, "My gods, my gods, why have you forsaken me?" On the cross, Jesus suffered so much that He felt forsaken. He felt as though He were left alone. The earth was consumed by darkness. His enemies had surrounded Him. He was crushed because of our sin. In one sense, He was forsaken. He died on the cross, without any sin, but like a sinner. He was numbered with transgressors. However, Jesus was not left to rot in the grave. He was raised to new life. He overcame death. His cry was heard, and was answered. In this way, Jesus was not forsaken. God had delivered His people through the death and resurrection of His Son.




there have been people burn at the stake who have lifted up their hands and praised god, where these more men less in pain then Jesus? or where they just "tougher" then him or what?


isn't it so that Jesus became sin for you and for me...and he had now become so detestable to God he could not even look at his own son that he crouched on the cross, are our sins forgiven because the Jews and romans rejected Christ and put him through physical suffering?


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/2/6 16:34Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Blake was it a typo when you wrote 'gods' instead of God?

Quote:
Your question is in reference to when Jesus cried out on the cross, "My gods, my gods, why have you forsaken me?"

 2007/2/6 16:39Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:beenblake

Quote:
How could Jesus be in Hell and on earth simultaneously for 3 hours?



Because he is God.

I'm not sure what happened, but I am sure anything is possible with God.

Thank you for your post. Lot to think about.

God Bless

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/2/6 16:42Profile
Bethl26
Member



Joined: 2007/1/27
Posts: 5
Ohio

 Re:

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Jesus was in much anguish, even before he was put on the cross. (Think about his prayers in the Garden of Gethsemane.) But, as he hung on the cross, one may grasp just how alone Jesus felt. God has to be seperate from sin, so it would appear that Jesus felt that seperation. It was literally God forsaking a part of himself in order that man could be saved. What a horrible, yet beautiful thing. The agony, anguish, and pain both emotionally and physically would be unspeakable, yet Jesus gave himself, while we were sinners, so that we might be reconcilled with the Father. How great a Love!

 2007/2/6 20:44Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: A sacred mystery

Hi eveyrone.

Brother Tj,


Something which strikes me about this topic is what a deep and sacred and personal thing it is; Surely it must be to God, since He endured it. So I wonder, if maybe these events are not more deserving of a sort of holy silence on our parts? In solemn moments, does anyone want to hear the sound of a gong or the noise of a cymbal? Are not such the sounds of our opinions?

In a sense, I believe the Apostles testified to that with their own silence on the subject. What I mean is I don't find any sort of lengthy discussion of the subject in their writings; only a word here or a refrence there. Yet, I would think that if any had the authority or the understanding to speak about it, they did.



Just some thoughts about it. Seems like a hard thing to go at brother.

Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/2/6 22:29Profile
tjservant
Member



Joined: 2006/8/25
Posts: 1658
Indiana USA

 Re:

Quote:
In solemn moments, does anyone want to hear the sound of a gong or the noise of a cymbal? Are not such the sounds of our opinions?



I believe you may be right. Thanks for posting this. I needed it.

God Bless

TJ


_________________
TJ

 2007/2/6 23:13Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Something I believe the Lord gave me on this subject; Daniel is a type of Christ descending into hell. Daniel descended into the pit to fulfill the Father's will. He did not suffer, but he did descend before he ascended (same with Joseph). Daniel did not suffer, but there were still lions about him. He was in the pit, but under the protection of the Father. Same with Jesus, he went to hell, but was not tormented in the flame. He was just being obediant.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2007/3/8 22:08Profile





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