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nobody
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Joined: 2003/9/16
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 Re:

I agree, but would also like to point out that Peter's weak moment was pre-Spirit filling. After Pentecost he was ready to be crucified upside-down with no regrets.

Most people expect that God will have mercy on actions that are committed in total complete weakness. This is why many question the teaching of suicide always being a ticket to hell. I think if I get into a jam like that I might just trust God to have the same mercy on my suicide that I'd expect Him to have on my murder. If you're gonna kill maybe it is best that it be yourself.

 2004/3/3 18:07Profile
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 Re:

Quote:
We have all heard about the bravery of many Chinese Christians risking their lives for God and for their faith. But the reality is, there are a lot more who had succumbed to the temptation of wavering in their faith--many of them well-known Bible teachers and preachers, who were no doubt genuine and fervent Christians. But even they may lapse into moments of weakness under the severe pressure from the Communists. (I thank God, who eventually restored many of them by reminding them of their first love; some Christians are not as forgiving).


Great words of wisdom brother! yes we are agreed on the biblical standard and morality of the issue of cannabilism. But as you said the practical experience of extreme situations could have people (christians included), falling to levels that are not worthy to be mentioned.


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SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2004/3/3 19:04Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Quote:
yes we are agreed on the biblical standard and morality of the issue of cannabilism.



I don't think anyone has given me any biblical evidence of non-cannabilism.

What is wrong with it?

Why is it different to eating an animal?

The body will rot in the ground or be cremated, will it not?

Please note I am talking about eating a person who has died of 'natural' causes, i.e. someone hasn't just killed them.


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Mark Nash

 2004/3/4 5:37Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re: It took a little time, but...

I waited to see when this thread would reach the true essense of what was being asked. The danger in making ANY exception to a law is that the EXCEPTION revises the law and all expect the same priviledge as the one in the extreme situation. So you ask... what is that law? Cannibalism is rejected on the same grounds as [b]Transubstantiation[/b]. It is not far from vampirism. Cannibalism has always been contrary to the law God has written on our hearts and to partake of such is to thrust God from the mind and beg reprobation (Romans 1). It also finds itself in the category that Paul used for such cases that may find themselves wildly beyond realm of reasonable human beings saying "And if there be any other thing that is CONTRARY TO SOUND DOCTRINE" (I Timothy 1:10). In what greater measure could a person "Defile themself with mankind?" Our body is sown in CORRUPTION... that means in some way they are corrupted with sin itself. Otherwise we would not need to be resurrected with a "spiritual" body. I am not suggesting gnostic and dualistic views of "the flesh" I am simply pointing to the fullness of the meaning of the Greek word SARX. We must put off this our tabernacle- because there is some element of sin that it is tainted therewith after the fall- though it was created to be good in the beginning. Otherwise the resurrection is nonsensical.

II Kings 6:24-30 reports the disgust of the King of Israel hearing that a woman had eaten her own child under great distress in agreement with another woman who now refused to cook and share hers. The king RENT his clothes- which is a knee jerk reaction to utter vexation of soul. Underneath his clothes he was wearing sackcloth which is another sign of extreme distress and humility before God and the prelude to going before God with great humbleness of mind to beg for mercy (sackloth & ashes).

Cannibalism is a pagan practice and gross violation of the 1st commandment. Pagan's believed that by eating a dead person they could acquire the characteristics of that person depending on the body part that was eaten. Why do you think the Pharisees (perushim) accused Jesus of blasphemy? One reason is that He said in metaphors "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood." Obviously He did not mean to infer paganism on the people and I believe the Pharisees knew this-- they saw Him as a threat to their authority that they had with the people (another issue). LAWS AGAINST these pagan rituals are among the FEW things that were placed upon believers at the FIRST CHURCH COUNCIL MEETING chaired by James the half brother of our Lord - the first president of the Church at Jerusalem. They were Gentiles (goyim) and were in the midst of this madness and could be tempted to participate. The 613 laws that the Jew was raised to believe strictly steered a person from such conduct by forbidding much lesser forms of meat (no cloven hoof, etc,). The Gentiles were pagans who had no law but the law of conscience and the laws upon their hearts which Paul (Shaul) wrote that they rejected and snuffed out in Romans 1 and 2. Enough said.

Consider his ruling:

Acts 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.


Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.


Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.


Old Testament:

Zechariah 9:6,7 And a bastard shall dwell in Ashdod, and I will cut off the pride of the Philistines. And I will take away his blood out of his mouth, and his abominations from between his teeth: but he that remaineth, even he, shall be for our God, and he shall be as a governor in Judah, and Ekron as a Jebusite.


"Abominations between their teeth?" If God so detested these things in the OT and He does not change... surely we have not so yielded to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons as to think that the cleansing of every creature for food extends to human flesh (I Timothy 4:4)? What madness and searing of the conscience would yield such a doctrine?


God Bless and Brotherly Love in Christ,


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/4 8:20Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

RobertW, I am assuming the last post was directed to me, if it was not then please tell me.

The danger in making ANY exception to a law is that the EXCEPTION revises the law and all expect the same priviledge as the one in the extreme situation.

Which exception am I making?


Cannibalism is rejected on the same grounds as Transubstantiation.

Which grounds are these and how are they connected?


It also finds itself in the category that Paul used for such cases that may find themselves wildly beyond realm of reasonable human beings saying "And if there be any other thing that is CONTRARY TO SOUND DOCTRINE" (I Timothy 1:10).

Which doctrine are you refering to?


II Kings 6:24-30 reports the disgust of the King of Israel hearing that a woman had eaten her own child under great distress in agreement with another woman who now refused to cook and share hers.

You are getting confused, these women were mudering their sons so to eat them, what I am talking about is eating a human who has died of 'natural' causes, e.g. like the plane crash in 'Alive'.


Pagan's believed that by eating a dead person they could acquire the characteristics of that person depending on the body part that was eaten.

Just because pagans believe something about a certain action that does not make that action wrong, e.g. if a pagan thinks that when a fire is lit the god of fire gives that person strength, this does not make lighting fires wrong.


Why do you think the Pharisees (perushim) accused Jesus of blasphemy? One reason is that He said in metaphors "Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood."

Unless I'm mistaken, the bible does not say that the pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy for saying this.



In regards to your other comments about meat, are you a vegetarian? and if so for what reason?


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Mark Nash

 2004/3/4 9:37Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
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 Re:

The fact that this is even being debated strikes me as a sure sign of depravity the likes of which are paralleled only by having to defend the sanctity of marriage as being only between a male and female. If your desire is to debate for the love of polemic- I'm not really interested. If you desire to know truth- God Himself teaches you that this is wrong!? No? Who am I to add to what He has already written on your heart?

If you are looking for a "Thou Shalt Not Eat People" you will not find it; but that does not excuse the behavior. The "LAW" and "Sound Doctrine" I'm referring to is the unwritten common sense that only this generation seems to want to challenge. To make an exception in saying that it is OK to eat people if you are hungry enough leaves the door open to people eating people if they are hungry, then craving man's flesh, etc. What madness is this? Have you not read in Daniel 7:25 "And he shall think to change times and laws"? Everything is up for grabs with the Spirit of Antichrist that exists today and to even crack the door in this matter sets us up for a flood of wickedness.

Cannibalism is rejected on the same grounds as Transubstantiation.

You ask:

Which grounds are these and how are they connected?

I already answered this to a good degree; however the connection is clear. Eating man flesh and drinking man's blood? Oh the people who have laid down their lives during the counter reformation for the belief that this (transubstantiation) was heresy (See John Fox and the Martyr's Mirror, etc.).

True the women did murder and eat their children because of the great famine in Samaria; however, the logic of the woman I mention in my first post from the destruction of Jerusalem was that "the child was dying anyway?" Why should we both die? This is EXTREME starvation at its worst. The people are literally out of their mind with hunger.

As for the Pharisee's- I concur that there may be no exact instance when they called his remark blasphemy; but rather, the whole of His teachings- which included that. No need to debate that- he was crucified? Many of his disciples remarked in John 6:53 that it was a HARD saying and many (not the 12) stopped following him over the remark.

No I am not a vegitarian and nor am I a cannibal. Consider I Corinthians 15:38,39...But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There is a distinction between the flesh of animals and that of man. Scripture does not lump them together and it would be demonic to teach the lawfulness of cannibalism.

The only hope for such a thing is in the case when David ate the shewbread when he was in need that was not lawful for him to eat. He never again took occasion to roll into the Holy Place and eat shewbread thereafter. It was an isolated case. Such would be the case in SEVERE famine. However, to open the door and begin suggesting that scripture allows for it is to open a flood of people wanting their right to cannibalize.


Best Regards in Christ,


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/4 11:56Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Nasher and others:

I never thought even the immorality of cannibalism is in dispute among Christians *sigh*.

So here are the direct references to cannibalism in Scripture taken from Nave's Topical Bible:

** Leviticus 26:29
** Deuteronomy 28:53-57
** 2 Kings 6:28,29
** Jeremiah 19:9
** Lamentations 2:20; 4:10
** Ezekiel 5:10

My observations:

Almost all references--Ezekiel 5:10, Lamentations 2:20, Jeremiah 19:9, Deuteronomy 28:53-57 and Leviticus 26:29--concerns the eating of children's or each other's flesh as a result of the punishment of the Lord. The image is that of being under siege by the enemies; extreme starvation thus led inevitably to cannibalism.

The rhetoric question in Lamentations 2:20 makes it clear that cannibalistic practices are considered negative, full of terror and horror.

Note however, that it is [i]assumed[/i] in scripture that being sieged and in starvation will [i]definitely[/i] lead to the horrible consequence of cannibalism. It is human nature to try to survive by all possible means.

I want to stress that Christian ethics is not always clear-cut in practice. We live in an imperfect world which often presents to us options that all have some evil in it.


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Sam

 2004/3/4 13:04Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

I agree. The thought I had at lunch (no pun intended) that I "bounced off" my brother brought back a response that I think that is worth considering. To what extent do human beings love life? Paul said once "I have a desire to depart and to be with Christ which is far better." Not that we are fatalistic in our thinking; but to what extent will a person go to save their life in a tribulation type situation. Would they also deny Christ? On the other hand Richard Wurmbrand in his book "Tortured for Christ" shows the great love that can come from severe persecution both for the Lord and our fellow believers.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/3/4 13:17Profile
Nasher
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Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

The fact that this is even being debated strikes me as a sure sign of depravity the likes of which are paralleled only by having to defend the sanctity of marriage as being only between a male and female.

What are you saying, that I am depraved?


If you desire to know truth- God Himself teaches you that this is wrong!? No? Who am I to add to what He has already written on your heart?

God has not revealed to me that it is wrong.


The "LAW" and "Sound Doctrine" I'm referring to is the unwritten common sense that only this generation seems to want to challenge.

I prefer to trust in the Lord and lean not on my own understanding.


To make an exception in saying that it is OK to eat people if you are hungry enough leaves the door open to people eating people if they are hungry, then craving man's flesh, etc. What madness is this?

What I am referring to is a survival situation, like a plane crash etc., not if Tesco's run out of food for a while.


Eating man flesh and drinking man's blood?

The difference here is that one is done in the belief that red wine will supernaturally turn into Christ's blood, the other is eating a man's flesh who has died of 'natural' causes.


however, the logic of the woman I mention in my first post from the destruction of Jerusalem was that "the child was dying anyway?" Why should we both die?

True they were both dying and if I was the parent I would give my life for the child, not the other way round.


As for the Pharisee's- I concur that there may be no exact instance when they called his remark blasphemy; but rather, the whole of His teachings- which included that.

The whole of Christ's teachings were not all considered blasphemy.


There is a distinction between the flesh of animals and that of man.

You are paraphrasing, the verse says there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. Four things are mentioned here.


However, to open the door and begin suggesting that scripture allows for it is to open a flood of people wanting their right to cannibalize.

I don't believe I have ever suggested that scripture allows for it, rather I have asked the question does scripture prohibit it.


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Mark Nash

 2004/3/5 4:32Profile
Agent001
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Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

Nasher,

It seems to me you are a little irritated. Calm down. We are one family though we may disagree. :)

See my previous post for the relevant scriptural verses on cannibalism. Let me know what you think.

S.


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Sam

 2004/3/5 10:51Profile





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