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GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 CARNAL Christians

Does anybody here believe in the "Carnal Christian" idea which means that somebody can be habitually living in sin and yet be saved?

I'm just wondering...


_________________
Kristy

 2007/1/20 18:08Profile









 Re: CARNAL Christians

Sure. John Newton for example. Writer of Amazing Grace. He remained a slave trader for four years after he was saved because he simply was not convicted that this was sin. Once he realized his sin, he repented, and wrote the song Amazing Grace. He tore people from their husbands and wives and children and felt like this was right. Some people have habits after salvation that they struggle with theri whole life, not because their not saved, but because their still living in the flesh and the flesh is sinful.

Charles Spurgeon loved to have a cigar and drink wine for years in his ministry and thought nothing of it. The only reason he quit doing it was because he did'nt want his brother to stumble. He still did'nt think their was anything wrong with it.

J-bird

 2007/1/20 22:10
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re: CARNAL Christians

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
Does anybody here believe in the "Carnal Christian" idea which means that somebody can be habitually living in sin and yet be saved?

I'm just wondering...


1John prooves this to be not so.

Notto mention [b]Hebrews 10:26[/b] [color=990000]For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,[/color]
This excludes the ones who "didn't know it was a sin" because [b]Hebrews 10:25[/b] [color=990000]Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; [b]but exhorting one another[/b]: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.[/color]

When, as a body(congregation) we are to walk in the light, as he is in the light, there, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 1John 1:7

 2007/1/20 22:27Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i dont remember who said it but.....


ive seen as many carnal christians as i have seen holy pagans....


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/1/21 1:51Profile









 Re: CARNAL Christians

Dear GraceAlone, brother or sister, (forgive me, I don't know your name, I'd like to)

I struggle. I struggle mightily. My brother Mike Balog, whom I love dearly in the Lord, though I have not seen his face, nor heard his voice, (yet) I've noticed has been consistently hitting on the point of "honesty", and in that spirit, and heart space, I write this post to you and any others of this Church. (and it IS a Church)

I struggle mightily. I'll just give you a couple of examples in confession, I won't get too explicit, coz this is not the appropriate venue, but I will be honest.

When I was saved, almost five years ago, a week after confessing Christ, God laid it on my heart, to quit tobbaco, cigarettes, and after service I went up to a dear elder, and said "Gerry, lay hands on me and pray this awful addiction out of me", and he laid hands on me and prayed. It was a miracle, I felt my lungs clear. I hugged him, thanked him, praised the Lord and walked out to my car, it was a Sunday, and right there in middle compartment, a pack of Pall mall filters, I longed at them, oh so longingly, and then God said, "Neil, this brother just poured himself out in MY Power, and you want to smooke? get yourself right now to the Rite Aid and buy some nicotine gum..now.

I did, and within a month I no longer needed the gum, or cigarettes. It was Jesus working in me.

Fast forward, to the summer of 06, this last summer. As many of you know, I was blessed with a great success, a play, in Chicago. I say that not to boast, because it was God that gave me the play, gave me the favor of man. The only dark part is that my son lives in California, and though he flys back and forth, our time is precious, it is short, and I miss him so much, because he is my beautiful boy, and one of my favorite guys to hang out with, he also walks with Jesus. and in the summer of 06, he spent three beautiful weeks with me, we went to ball games, we slept in, he saw my show, numerous times, he was so proud of daddy, we had so many great conversations, and hugs and love, and then one day, he flew back to California, and I stood at that airport window and wept. I cannot even convey with words how empty I felt, I tried to lean on Jesus, but I was groping in the morass of my sorrows.

I walked out of the airport, and into my car, we were in the midst of an unnatural heat wave that lasted for three weeks, and I drove back to the theater to do the nights show. I turned on the radio, and heard the first news of Hiz'boallah raining rockets down on Israel, hundreds of rockets. I'm a jew saved by Grace, a follower of Messiah Jesus, and to a Jew, Israel has a special place in our hearts, its another thing I can't convey in human words.

Literally at that point, it felt like the end of the world, and I was empty, I was wretched, crying, I didnt even turn the air conditioning on, I opened the windows and let the oven bake me as i drove the expressway back into Chicago.

I reached the theater, got out, and some of my fellow cast members were standing out back smoking cigarettes. You can feel where this going, cant you? They don't know God, but I love them anyway, I love them deeply, and I turned to one, and said, "could you give me a smoke?" He said, "no Neily". I said, "please, I'm an adult, I dont need a parent, I just need a cigarette".

I KNOW thats a terrible witness, but I smoked that cigarette, and after the show bought a pack.
Terrible conviction came over me. After that pack, I prayed, bought the gum, backslid again, called my mentor, my pastor and confessed, he said, "you will destroy yourself...please stop".

The Holy Spirit was saying the same thing to me, but back and forth I went, and right now, in the early morning hours of 21 january, after my work, I have a burning cigarette as I type this.

Its just terrible, its Romans 7, "what I don't want to do, i do"...."oh what a wretched man I am".

I didnt outline the events of that day as an excuse. I loathe excuses, its the vocabulary of the weak, but I am weak, and under terrible conviction of sin.

May I share one more confession?

Just the other day, one of the more immature members of the theater company got front page coverage in the newspapers boasting about how much money my show has made, and gave actual dollar figures, and he did this, because he is mounting a show in our other theater space, its a storefront theater, and the money my show has made is unheard of. But I know full and well, it's been a God thing. I never would have known this, because I dont read the papers, except for the internet NY Times, just to peruse the headlines. Most of my time is spent in Bible study when i awake, and then writing.

My dear business partner called me with this info; and I went ballistic. I used language I havent used since I got saved, and it was awful. I was SO angry that not only was proprietery business info blasted out to the public, but the boasting by this man who is in leadership within the theater. I spoke awful foul language and in an instant, I was grief stricken by this foul outpouring and anger from my heart and my mouth. After I vented, I said, "Oh my God, please forgive me", then i said to my dear partner, "please please forgive me for that language".

A terrible witness, He said, "its okay".

It wasnt, but than I asked God to remove this anger from my heart, and when I went back to the theater, i didnt breathe a word of foulness, i did tell the other leadership in the theater that this was unwise, and they also were dismayed and cross with this man, but again, nobody said anything, we let it drop.

But my grief and my sin, was that it even poured forth in the first place. Why? God answered my prayer that I was able to let it go, and tonight I kissed this man on the cheek, coz it was the opening of his new play and whispered into his ear, I'm very proud of you".

was that a lie? No. I was proud that he was able to open a new show. He's not just some man, he's my son's uncle, my family, and before the show, he asked me privately, "you weren't happy with the interview?" in the past, it would have been a huge nasty argument, as i would have let my anger pour forth, but Jesus gave me the Grace and the wisdom to say, very gently, "No, its not that, I just don't think we should be talking to the press about our financial accomplishments or situation, thats all". he nodded, and that was it.

there was no fight, no rancor. Jesus intervened.

But I struggle, and i contend, and I am working out my own salvation with fear and trembling. I fear God, I revere God and I love God, and i want to be an obedient son of His.

This walk with Christ is not easy, I dont have to tell any of you of that, we all know it.

Thank you so much for staying with this long post, God bless you for loving me in that way, and let me tell you, I covet your prayers, please don't judge me too harshly.

again I say, I covet any and all of your prayers

meek and broken, neil

 2007/1/21 3:42
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re: CARNAL Christians

the corithians fell into carnality, but paul rebuked them, and later on they did repent. even though they were carnal, paul still called them christians and treated them still as God's people.

2 Corinthians 7:8-11

8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death. 11 For observe this very thing, that you sorrowed in a godly manner: What diligence it produced in you, what clearing of yourselves, what indignation, what fear, what vehement desire, what zeal, what vindication! In all things you proved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

so, i believe that christians can fall back into carnality, but to stay there would be a danger.

Romans 8:5-8

5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.






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Lisa

 2007/1/21 10:12Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

how is it possible to live in rebellion to God and in the same time be saved?


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/1/21 10:36Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re: carnal christian

I truly don't know the answer to this, I thought I once did.

Neil, thank you brother for your honesty and your humility. I am moved.

I say that I 'once thought I knew the answer' to some of these questions until my own life has taken some turns that I never thought would exhist. I have been faced with situations and trials, etc.. that I once thought I would know exactly how I would react and how I thought I 'should' react- and it didn't happen that way. Was I disappointed? yes. broken? yes. humbled? yes. discouraged? yes.

Like Neil, I can say that there are things that have come out of my mouth or things I have done in this past 6 months (under great trial, I might add) that I so agonized over, "What a horrible witness! What have I done? Why did I say that? My heart stinks with pride!" A couple of years ago, I would have said that I was far beyond this - that I had grown spiritually beyond this. But again, I had not been hit with the kind of trials that I have been hit with this past two years yet.

All I can say is that when these times come, when you fail at being that 'perfect' christian that you thought you could or should be -you realize that you don't deserve much of anything- yet under all that somewhere you know that Christ does love you and prays for you. [b]You realize how much more you need Christ, how much more you need His grace and mercy. You appreciate that cross like never before[/b].

I thought once that i could live in total surrender at all moments, at all hours, under all circumstances- no matter what. I was convinced that I was capable of being something other than human. But we are still human- though we have Christ living in us. We are not gods.

I probably shouldn't continue on, I will only get myself in more trouble. All I can say is that unless you have walked in someone's shoes, you can't say what you would do- because you just don't know.

This reminds me again of the "Blessedness of Winter' by Guyon that Joy (Roniya) posted. https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=14139&forum=34#109011

When we are under pressure, when we are being squeezed by great trials, we never know what will come out. At least I didn't. Yucky things come out for all to see. Things that you didn't know you had in your heart- anger, rebellion, unknown strongholds, etc... But it is all a process- a refining process.

So much for 'not going on' ;-)

Broken and humbled as well, Chanin


_________________
Chanin

 2007/1/21 14:51Profile
hmmhmm
Member



Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4991
Sweden

 Re:

i should refrase that question, from how.... to
is it possible?


i to just came out of an enormus struggle,it was to big for me ever to manage, the pure grace and mercy of God got me thrue, i to said things im ashamed over, i did things im ashamed over, so many times ive cried to God -its enough! come back or take me home lord.... i cant take it any more, sometimes so broken over my sins and so grieved over what ive done to him, i dont know what else to do just to go down on my knees and just beg for mercy, cry for help,

but thats the difference i think, if you are not fighting and struggling against it, then we are in rebellion.... my fight is to try and stop the "rebellion" kill it, get it crusified.... sometimes it feels like im hanging there up on the cross but one arm is still free and tries to escape to continue this wicked carnal lusts and behaviors,

i like what david brainerd writes, the only thing i ever did even on the best of my days was to try and get away from God,

everything is from him.... and such a merciful and kind and loving God who would do what he did for a man such as me.... he is worth it all, every struggle every pain, every thing i have to forsake, every thing i have to leave behing...its all worth it for him

i press on...


_________________
CHRISTIAN

 2007/1/21 15:06Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: the arrows of the Almighty

Hi everyone.

I can empathise with both Neil and Chanin.

Brother Neil, I too was addicted to ciggaretes and to my great shame, I held on to the addiction, not for a month or two, but for nearly two years after my conversion. I say held on because I kept smoking and I think I had gotten it into my mind that it was somehow tolerated? because as far as I had decided, God had not given me the strength to quit, as if the burden for my quiting them was His responsibility and whatever the case I was not justified in smoking. I kept crying to God; nothing. Or so it seemed?

Then one morning the pastor began to rebuke the habit from the pulpit and it was as if it was a sword thrust right at me. I confessed this to him later and he said he had no idea and did not have anyone in mind. I was crushed. It hurt deeply and I think I was angry with God for sure. I laid on the couch for probably about two days in anguish. I quit them. And it hurt.

Then after this, or perhaps around the same time, I noticed a pain within my chest, right in the center. It was not physical and it seemed to get worse and worse. Well, that was maybe 3 or 4 years ago now and the pain is still with me. I have no idea what it is except that I do not at all believe it is physicall, but rather emotional or some such. I can not even describe it except that it is dull..almost gnawing, even that may not be a right description. It is not constant but comes and goes, often while I'm at work, making work very difficult to endure.

This is why I can also empathise with Chanin. During this same time I have lost the awareness of the presence of God. One night I remember having fallen asleep, kneeling, with my face buried in couch, which is the manner in which I usually pray, and I was awakened by the lyircs to a song being played on the radio. It is a contemporary song by Mark Shultz called 'He will carry me'. It was the words in the chorus in particular where it says

And even though
I feel so lonely
like I have never
felt before
He never said
it would easy
but You said You'd see
me through the storm.


And those words capture so much. I remember the Bishop of the Church we attended saying from the pulpit, before we moved away, how the sorest trial you can face is the absence of the presence of God. I believe it.

Well, that's where I'm at. I so understand what Chanin means about things being brought out you had no idea where there. Thinking... grasping... for the hidden purposes of God in all this, I think as much as anything it could be to reduce me to nothing in my own eyes. Which is the way it should be.


I think I know a bit of what Job was saying here when he cried

[i]...the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit[/i]


God is good. God is just. God is just in His dealings with me.

But I can tell you, that confession is much harder to make with your heart when you are in pain.

Patiently, by God's grace, yours,

Christopher Joel Dandrow


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/1/21 16:42Profile





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