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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Patrick


Christisking wrote:
The featured quote fits perfect. As is always the case, "be careful what you ask for - you just might get it" and how often we hate it when we get it.

Sermonindex featured quote - [b]"We desperately need seers who can see through the mist, Christian leaders with with prophetic vision. Unless they come soon it will be too late for this generation."[/b]

-A.W. Tozer (1897-1963)


sometimes i wonder if we are so different from Israel in our state before God...can we see the prophets of God where Israel failed? maybe we can, or maybe we can't? perhaps we're bound by the same iniquity rendering us blind as they were. oh well, God knows andmay He straighten us out in His time.AMEN.

Farai Bamu

 2007/1/23 15:01Profile

 Re: Dream of Apostasy - Prophetic Warning - Judgment is HERE!

Hi MikeB,

This is a response to some of your questions to me and your thoughts, in the post on p4.

I think I'm beginning to see where you are coming from.... although I could be missing something, or crossing some wires.....

It seems to me that you are looking for the same kind of objective testing one can give the written word, by the consistency which is demonstrated there on the surface of the page, in matters which are purely of the Spirit and His witness, by which we must now live and walk in newness of life.

And I think.... this cannot be done. These two, while they both testify to to life in Christ Jesus, do not necessarily testfy to each other directly in an objective way.

This is why the writings of John are so very helpful in scripture, because he (in my opinion) ties these two together most securely, in his testimony of the life, words and actions of Jesus, and then, by his stunning first epistle.

So, to your opening questions:


Hi Linn,

But how do you know this? Is this not presumption? What is our measure for testing?

I want to start with this last question, because it touches on the point you make about the dream you had. I too have had very vivid dreams, but, they were a response to fear rather than God. In the dreams I have had, in which God has spoken to me, I have been in no doubt of the meaning of what He has said, or that it was HE who was ministering to me. These were all dreams for me personally, not for the Church at large, in the way Josef has posted his dream, but [i][b]without doubt[/i][/b], His ministry through the dreams, has contributed to who I am now, in Him. And for me, [i]believing[/i] Him, [i]and [b]believing[/i][/b] that I was judging aright that it was [u]God[/u] speaking to me, has contributed greatly to my flexibility in His hands, and to my trusting my judgment of what is from the Spirit, and what is not, and of trusting the [i]checks[/i] I have had in my spirit, as much as the green lights. In all this, there is a necessity for obedience to the faith.

Now, in referring to your dream, you make no claim for it having contained a word from God to you, far less to the Church, and yet, you seem to know that God used it to communicate some truth to you - to wake you up to eternal reality.

You asked 'But was it a particular prophecy?'

I have no idea, without hearing the detail. I say that, because I seem to be able to interpret some dreams and visions, where others are completely blank. But I have never interpreted a tongue..... The prospect terrifies me.

So, when you ask 'Is this not presumption?' (for me to say that Josef KNOWS his dream came from God), in the meaning of the word 'presumption' (from

3. belief on reasonable grounds or probable evidence.
4. something that is presumed; an assumption.
5. a ground or reason for presuming or believing.
6. Law. an inference required or permitted by law as to the existence of one fact from proof of the existence of other facts.
7. an assumption, often not fully established, that is taken for granted in some piece of reasoning.

it seems to me one has to make certain assumptions about the validity of a brother or a sister laying claim to having heard from God.

You are right, I do presume that Josef is not consciously setting out to deceive us. In this particular case, his references to the conviction he saw appearing, and then growing, particularly, struck me as something only a real preacher-by-calling (apart from the message he was preaching in the dream, which was not a message to tickle the ears of any congregation), could identify, and feel comfortable with.

Thirdly, that he was mocked, did not sound like a case of the house of beelzebub being divided against itself, but rather, a matter of the profane mocking the holy, as only true enemies of the cross of Christ could mock.

In other words, within its content, I tested the meaning of what Josef was saying, against scriptural truth, and, I accepted his word that he lines himself up on the side of scripture.

It would be very difficult for anyone to create a false message which was as consistent as the whole of Josef's report. I'm sure it could be done, but I was impressed at the coherency, also, of the post he made.

I have found, through careful listening, and the help of the Spirit to my memory, that when I was sitting under the false doctrine to which I alluded earlier in the thread, I [i]was[/i] aware of inconsistencies and contradictions, and these stuck in my memory, as much as any word the Lord spoke directly to me, by which I shaped my life thereafter.

I have no idea if you'll be satisfied with this explanation of 'how' I 'know this' (in answer to 'But how do you know this?'), because I am also going by my [i]hearing[/i] of the word of God from others, who have a similar message. I, too, have had impressed upon me in the last year, that [i]I was lost, but Jesus found me.[/i] I was one of those not on the city streets, but in the highways and byways, who was compelled to come in. This IS the message of the gospel which Jesus Himself spoke many times.

Having said that, my ministry is far less to them directly, than to the saints (at this time, I believe). However, I also minister to the lost with whom the Lord bonds me in His will. And, within the last two hours I said to a sister here on SI, that I believe there is no gift of the Spirit which is closed (to me), if I have the unction from God to use it at a certain time. But, I don't usually claim to 'have a gift'. I simply function in God in that moment.

Yes, you see that is the issue but what concerns me is the tendency to be democratic rather than scriptural.

Well, it may look like democracy to you, but when saints agree, I think it means they have all individually checked their thinking in the light of the witness of the Spirit, or scripture, or both. As I said above, sometimes the connection between this, is in the knowing of Jesus, rather than the written word. I realise I'm verging on risky territory by this statement but if you want to leave the knowing of Jesus out of the equation, then you have to take a big bundle of verses which refer to the working of the Spirit, and let that be enough.

So, is everyone who expresses an opinion in an SI thread, baptised in the Spirit? I doubt it. But, I don't see the point in speaking against those who may not be, when those who are have all the equipment they need for discerning the voice of God in the true ministry.... Do you see what I mean?

Do I see what you mean? Please tell me....

 2007/1/23 16:29

Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Clarifications

Do I see what you mean? Please tell me....

At the expense of making this far worse ... No. Think we are both very adept at making a lot of gobbledygook of matters sometimes. Pouring in way too much ... [i]are you saying then ...?[/i].

We end up far from the ideal which is only the questionings at hand, right back to this same redundant principle of '[i]playing the ball, not the man'[/i]. Problem is, the way even the questions can be couched may be lending to the problem, that is regretful, perhaps the qualifiers are needed more than I know, though they seem weary at times. (I.E. "[i]That is not to say[/i]....". To make sure we are not attacking, not being mean spirited, on and on...)

[i]Emotions are very poor arbitrators, even worse facilitators of discernment.[/i]

Threw little quip out into my notes the other day for myself to just look at and ponder. Isn't this often the case? Isn't this where we can jump ship and start assuming all kinds of terrible things ... about each other? In some measure we can all be guilty at times of it I would think, surely even as much as I may be one to point it out ... well who would know better than the accuser? I despise it and yet ... Too fast. Too fast in our judgment, too fast in the considerations, too fast in glazing over the surface of so many things. Am curious at what we can tend to and that which we don't or at least in this setting the things that seem to fall off the map, things that are penetrating ... [i]Hard -heart[/i] questions. Not the 'hardness' per se, but the issues and manners of the heart. The examinations ... pride and bitterness and the whole long laundry list. Things not pertaining to [i]them[/i] but to [i]us[/i]. We expose ourselves here in great measure all the time and yet ... To draw attention to these matters, brings what? More accusation and assumption, suspicion ... [i]emotion[/i]. This may be far afield from the contents here but not entirely.

Questions. Again, I do regret the way they where put forth. They were the intention only. The dividing of the sheep. The church past it's 'expiration date'. To revisit this original post it is both that which bore out of a dream and then the interpreting thereof. It raised the questions in my mind and to my understanding and those where concerns that I felt necessary to address. That's all. If I had left it at that would have been better off. But dismissive of the whole? Certainly not, would have to chuck a great deal of this whole site to do that. We know these things. We do know the poor state of the situation ...

What can be somewhat difficult to tell though is if we are more broken of the situation or frankly guilty of;

Luk 9:53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.
Luk 9:54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?

It doesn't seem too out of place to apply this if the idea is that [i]they did not receive him[/i] is what we would be accusing the apostate church of and hard to argue with that definition, the problem is the penchant for consumption with our pontificating.

We are playing God more than we let on to.

"Prophetic Warning"

The other difficulty is that this is incorporated into all of this. It is again tricky to disallow motivation and emotion from the equation to just look at this and ... well, test it. We either must be 'yea-sayers' or 'naysayers' so it goes. And perhaps it is just my particular bent to stop this madness of insinuation and head surgery that we just must have of the 'agreed and the disagreed'... In fact did it not already rear it's head not only from some of the response but even from the author? The qualifier; I mean no accusation to your motivation Joseph for your doing so. But again we see this come forth in bringing up those that are agreed as our support structure, this lends the 'authenticity' to it. But I am only asking, is that so? That a handful of saints agreement is the end of all question? That the question appealing back to scripture is necessarily ...[i]dogmatic, legalistic, ... ill-willed, ... partial?[/i]

This all seems overly explanatory. A bit too much.

The word 'prophetic' has become many things to many people. And I can only give the observations that I am aware of, my 'opinion' how thankful that is, something adjustable ... Recall a great statement from T. Austin Sparks about how we are often getting our spiritual and natural wires crossed to paraphrase it a bit. It happens and will continue to happen. Why we need to be truly [i]good Bereans[/i] is far more than the letter of the law and matters of interpretation, the witness of the Spirit and the particulars of personal circumstance ... What I can gather of the apostles and disciples is that the meanings derived from this tremendous word is both a bit of foretelling and that which is more ... explanatory? Not quite 'teaching' but more of development of those things already stated. The foretelling being much more rare in all the New Testament scriptures. The penchant in our day is to blur the Old Testament prophets with the descriptions and definitions given in the letters, primarily from Paul ... I do not have a full grip on all this in the least.


This seems to be the requirement. In this day to bring it to that requirement is to cause all kinds of commotion and ... insinuation, sadly. The test of purity and authenticity at the least to what is written ... surely this ought to be more welcomed, no? This is what gives doubt sad to say about so much defending and explanation, what is there to defend but the man and his ...'respectibility' if the thing in question is really true? Very puzzling. If one is that convinced it wouldn't make a difference in the world if even an Angel came and began disputing ...

But let me just add that far be it from me to chuck the baby with the bathwater here. Let me add the redundant warning about all this. This day that we live in is full of the emotional saint, the untested and unthinking, the flippant as well as the heart felt. Certainly the very same things being addressed even here in our brothers dream are without question. We must be on our guard and recall the real true emphasis stated;

2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an [b]angel of light[/b].
2Co 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the [b]ministers of righteousness[/b]; whose end shall be according to their works.

Not to go too far with that. Am not applying this to the matter at hand, I am speaking 'out there', in generalities. Would expect this to only continue to get worse. It is not of necessity going to be the overt but the subtle and ... the sloppy. The sloppy saint that will not take everything back to a Berean mindset. Testing.

Being careful of much of the Christinease that is prevalent in our day. Of 'speaking into each other's lives'. Of the 'anointed' man or woman. Of all the unbiblical notions that are tossed about so casually.

Actually this dream is not really in question in all. The questions arose as the dream was explained and developed, as to it's meaning and even it's title;

"Dream of Apostasy - Prophetic Warning - Judgment is HERE!"

The questions came about from that aspect. The finality. The dividing etc. The only good reason for even addressing it is to sharpen and actually edify each other. Strange, the dismantling to attempt unity ...

To finish the unfinished thought... The prophetic, one giant nay-saying? This morning was just left speechless [i]again[/i] by a saint, some 3,000 miles away who I have very little correspondence with, the last some 10 months ago. Whatever might be said this has happened before and it is just ... frightening, wonderfully frightening how exacting this saint is. Right through me ... It is impossible to know the things expressed lest the Lord reveal it. I broke into deep sobs and tears and heavy breathing, heaving, could hardly finish reading the comments without falling on my face for my unbelief and sheer astonishment... Even this saints words were prefaced with "[i]I don’t know why I am compelled to write this right at this time![/i]" And all of it is really, if it was to be told just a 'minor thing', nothing grandiose, future forecasting ... Just the recognition of present state circumstances. [i]Exacting[/i]. I am so unworthy of such a even small visitation of something like this ... Our God is indeed wonderful and [i]fearful[/i].

Mike Balog

 2007/1/24 10:30Profile

Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana


Praise Jesus!! Lion of Judah!! and soon returning King!!!!!!!

1ki 22:7 And Jehoshaphat said, "Is there not still a prophet of the Lord here, that we may inquire of Him?"
1ki 22:8 So the king of Israel said to Jehoshaphat, "There is still one man, Micaiah the son of Imlah, by whom we may inquire of the Lord; but I hate him, because he does not prophesy good concerning me, but evil." And Jehoshaphat said, "Let not the king say such things!"

1ki 22:20 "And the Lord said, 'Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?' So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner.
1ki 22:21 "Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, 'I will persuade him.'
1ki 22:22 "The Lord said to him, 'In what way?' So he said, 'I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.' And the Lord said, 'You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.'


2th 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2th 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
2th 2:12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17 Repent for the hour is late and the Kingdom of God is at hand

 2007/1/24 10:36Profile

Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178

 Re: Dream of Apostasy - Prophetic Warning - Judgment is HERE!

Whether we agree with every word of this or not there is much we can agee with. The condition of a huge portion of the church in the USA is exactly as he has described and we need to fast and pray to see that changed. We need to take our responsibilities seriously. We need to get off our ease and weep between the porch and altar over the ruined city and broken down walls.

I am convicted.


 2007/1/25 0:26Profile

Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7497


Mike wrote:

Think we are both very adept at making a lot of gobbledygook of matters sometimes. Pouring in way too much ... are you saying then ...?.

Perhaps one could take lessons from the prophets of old, New Testamant included: Keep the words few and to the point. You can lose people quick in lengthy explanations where one is left wondering: now what do they mean? what are they saying?

My opinion...

Sandra Miller

 2007/1/25 10:06Profile

 a few words.

God willing, next Monday I will drive out to Patrick and Josef to pray with these dear brothers.

and why this burden? Coz of what the Lord spoke thru Josef.

 2007/1/25 13:35

 Re: Dream of Apostasy - Prophetic Warning - Judgment is HERE!

Re Clarifications

Hi Mike,

I apologise in a measure that I must be as brief as a dare, not because ginnyrose suggests it is helpful, but sheer lack of time, and I do wish to respond to the meaning I made out of your comments.

Let me first say that your reading of my post is completely different from one other private comment I've had, and this has served to increase the contrast I perceive in your 'take' on biblical prophecy, which I have to admit I have noticed before, but now, wish to address - only in a measure.

Together with my comments below, I am going to post a thread in Scripture and Doctrine on Moses, Elijah as seen on the Mount of Transfiguration..... not for me to expound, but for discussion to start, to which I hope there will be a helpful response for us all and those reading.

As your post above proceeded, I gathered that you were not disputing Josef's dream. What bothered you was the title he gave the thread about it, and that he sought to add the interpretation the Lord gave him, (which is completely in keeping, with 1 Cor 14, and legitimate, in that there is no requirement for an interpretation to be given by another person. This can also apply to the interpretation of a tongue, which is sometimes given by the person who gave the tongue.) and then, having found how it lined up with scripture, he showed how this too confirmed what the Lord had said to him.

So, perhaps we are only talking about the terminology of the title of his thread, and not the actual message he gave, although, you are disputing the extremity of it, and the absoluteness of the terms he used.

Now, in respect of this skepticism on your part, I am concerned. Skepticism does have a scientific use with regard to the questioning of assumptions which can be proved false, for the elucidating of purer truth.

But, is this really what your skepticism is setting out to achieve, or, are you demonstrating a 20th century propensity to show something is neither right nor wrong, despite the fact that such a conclusion is anything but scriptural?

You also said

Being careful of much of the Christinease that is prevalent in our day. Of 'speaking into each other's lives'. Of the 'anointed' man or woman. Of all the unbiblical notions that are tossed about so casually.

I agree completely that there is need for caution when describing anyone as 'anointed', if there is the suggestion thereby, that they are [i]more[/i] anointed than anyone else who has received the Holy Spirit. After all, we ALL have an unction from the Holy One. (1 John 2:20)

However, when I read this

'Of 'speaking into each other's lives'......

and the paragraph completed with

'Of all the unbiblical notions that are tossed about so casually.'

I had the impression you were saying these are [u]both[/u] (the 'anointed' man/woman, and, 'speaking into each other's lives') [b]unbiblical notions[/b].

I won't go to the trouble of pulling together scripture, unless you can confirm this [i][b]is[/i][/b] what you were saying.... that you believe this both to be 'unbiblical' notions.


Lastly, you referred to the New Testament as being short on prophecy when you said
[b]The foretelling being much more rare in all the New Testament scriptures.[/b] The penchant in our day is to blur the Old Testament prophets with the descriptions and definitions given in the letters, primarily from Paul ... I do not have a full grip on all this in the least.

Leaving aside the Old Testament prophets who are quoted in the New Testament, how can you justify this statement about New Testament foretelling? I can immeditately think of loads of prophecy from Jesus, Peter and Paul, and some allusions to prophecy by Luke.

This is not to include the many references to Old Testament scriptures in the New Testament, which are not actually quoted in the New Testament, but rounded up into a non-specific bundle, several times.

Also, having previously acknowledged false doctrine in our pasts, I am coming to think, from what you write, that you have an idea of prophecy under the New Covenant, as if it should read, or be heard, in the same way as it did under the Old. If you do, then this I would dispute, and suggest this may be the real root of your trouble with brethren and sisters to [i]do[/i] have a prophetic gift, whether they call themselves 'prophets' or not.

Please, I am not trying to put words into your mouth. I think you have written enough about this in the last year, (and I have not read it all), for me to be able to say, this is the impression I have got. If I am wrong, please answer the specific points I've raised, explaining your stance more clearly.

Again, thanks. :-)

 2007/1/25 16:43

 Re: a few words.

God willing, next Monday I will drive out to Patrick and Josef to pray with these dear brothers.

and why this burden? Coz of what the Lord spoke thru Josef.

Hi bartle,

You're not the only person with this burden.

I'll be praying for your journey and sweet fellowship in Jesus.

 2007/1/25 16:45

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