mamaluk wrote:Quote:Grace is a gift of God and faith is an enablement of man from creation to believe..This is simply put but rather sound.Grace, I love this word, hearing of it, reading of it, and most definitely living by it..moment by moment.I feel that while God sustains His children's life through eternity by Grace, He maintains this life of ours by giving us faith. How marvellous HE is to us indeed, also, how unimaginable for any of us if He hadn't given us His Word!! Yes, His Grace is more than sufficient for me.Thank you Orm for all those verses you posted to remind me of His Grace, yes, and that shows me His grace in you.May God bless you more so each day!mamaluk
Grace is a gift of God and faith is an enablement of man from creation to believe..
I am getting of the opinion that this subject isn't of much interest. Sad shame since so much is dependent upon grace and faith; so much of what is yet to come upon us.
I also imagine that an athiest forum is much like this forum -people go there looking to argue or fight over some bit of knowledge, and no matter how many tomes can be written in the forum, generally the people tend to stick to their original battle lines... no offense to anyone on this forum.
_________________Mike Balog
GraceMusing ... God's [i]desire[/i]?Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. [b]full of grace and truth[/b]; that is, he dwelt among men, and appeared to have a fulness of each of these: for this clause is not to be joined with the glory of the only begotten, as if this was a branch of that; but regards him as incarnate, and in his office, as Mediator; who, as such, was full of "grace"; the Spirit, and the gifts of the Spirit; of all the blessings of grace, of justifying, pardoning, adopting, sanctifying, and persevering grace; of all the promises of grace; of all light, life, strength, comfort, peace, and joy: and also of truth, of all Gospel truths; and as he had the truth, the sum, and substance of all the types and prophecies concerning him in him; and as he fulfilled all his own engagements, and his Father's promises; and as possessed of sincerity towards men, and faithfulness and integrity to God, John GillHappy to hear this ... differently. That is, rather than starting with an edifice of a statement and seeking to support or tear it down, which is very often our trouble is it not? Something like [i]irresitable grace[/i] and it's accompaning defenition, the inclusion in a 5 point system makes it something for a holding of the fort; All the arguments are subject to it's own defining. That is neither a specific knock or disregard. [i]Better distictions[/i], even [i]other[/i] distictions, just plain old consideration.One of the very beauties of even SermonIndex is the challenges that come from a collection of different perspectives and I have found it quite happily to be more often complimentary, these great spirits of the living God, living past their expiration date.One that comes to mind is something Zac Poonen is fond of exerting about another edifice of a statement; Grace being the "[i]Lord's unmerited favor[/i]" and his almost violent reaction as "[i]He merited every last bit of it![/i] in conjunction with the cross.Another quick, redundant wrench in all this; "Camp's", how wearying the axiomatic and diabolic mind surgery we often feel so inclinded to do when even just to peer into things; "Ah, [i]Arminian[/i] you are then ...", "Calvinist", no different than the political landscape that colors everything into clean shades of "Conservative\Liberal", always having to have a label to stick, a place to put ... The wonder that anything can be accomplished in dialouge with all these notions and suspicions ... The stranglehold of [i]pre[/i]-judice, [i]pre[/i]-sumption. These idols of the mind... So much for quick.Just to look at the word with it's definitions, Hebrew and Greek respectively;[b]H2580[/b]חןchênkhaneFrom H2603; graciousness, that is, subjectively (kindness, favor) or objectively (beauty): - favour, grace (-ious), pleasant, precious, [well-] favoured.[b]G5485[/b]χάριςchariskhar'-eceFrom G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).[b]"the divine influence upon the heart"[/b][b]Thanksworthy[/b]Purposefully staying away from some of the more usual aspects latched unto to see what else is being draw from this marrow. Going back to Romans and my own musing of wonder at all this in Paul's articulation, having left off with [i]provocation[/i]. Generally speaking the word seems to have a negative conotation; [i]Provoke[/i] and ,well ...[b]H4784[/b]מרהmârâhmaw-raw'A primitive root; to be (causatively make) bitter (or unpleasant); (figuratively) to rebel (or resist; causatively to provoke): - bitter, change, be disobedient, disobey, grievously, provocation, provoke (-ing), (be) rebel (against, -lious).Guess I have no argument otherwise, to look at it's defenition.Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [i]rather[/i] through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. Whenever Paul want's to emphesis anything by way of pre-sumption; "[i]God forbid![/i]" is layed to the charge. Love that. [i]Rather[/i], ... My, what a powerful word to dwell on, it just sort of startled me in my tracks here. [i]Rather[/i] ... [i]Grace[/i]? "Provoke" = Grace?What I am looking at through these expressions in Romans is just how uncanny it all is, this [i]grace[/i] that has become just run right over having much more in our day the attachment of [i]God forbid![/i] ..."Shall we sin that ... [i]grace[/i]? ... [i]God forbid[/i]!" Ah, I am want to go off in ten different directions at the same time as a certain spiritual excitement is brewing, hastily trying to force out an expression. Just to look back at the Lords dealings with Israel. Over and over and over again ... [i]Grace[/i]. It's stupendous. This provoking, to envy, to jeolousy, suddenly the echo of Paris Reidhead's terse exclamation comes into the hearing; [i]Because [b]I love them![/b]Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the [b]goodness and severity of God[/b]: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. This has again become just [i]fixed[/i] in the thoughts. The [b][i]both[/i][/b] of the matter. Having a hard time controlling these divergences, maybe they can make sense by reading between the lines. Why to place this here, now ...Israel. The grace shown to them [i]despite[/i] everything, the choice passages Paul brings in;Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. [i]Severity[/i]Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. [i]Goodness[/i]?Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people. [i]Severity[/i]Rom 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. [i]Goodness![/i]God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel, saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Rom 11:2-4Skipping on purpose the more usual emphesis for the moment, the next couple of verses ...What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. Rom 11:7-10[i][b]Severity[/b][/i]Rom 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. There it is again; [i]God forbid![/i] And, [i]provoking[/i].A good place to stop and leave pondering having almost come full circle. A couple of things that are hanging in the mysterious air in relation to this profound word, [i]Grace[/i]. ForgivenessSecond, third and multiple thousand "[i]second chances[/i]"Pardon.[i]For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich[/i]. 2Co 8:9
That's a bunch [of accuracy] to digest, to be sure. Try this and then review your "musing": View grace as a quantitive and well as a qualitive, state of being we may enjoy; a variable condition/value of God's provision..... only seen and entered by faith towards Him who extends it to us.
Hey Roadsign,I understand your point now.
Brother Ormly wrote:
Grace does the drawing while faith takes him there.
_________________Jeff Marshalek
rookie wrote:Brother Ormly wrote:Quote: Grace does the drawing while faith takes him there.I might say that grace becomes the "substance hoped for."Our path defines the evidence of what we hope for. So the grace of God acts upon what our hearts and minds strive after. Faith is acquired by us through following the path that is lite before us by the Light of Life. Examples of saints in Scripture paint a picture of what grace does in the lives of those who live by faith. Wisdom and understanding is framed by Scripture. As one grows in understanding, one will recognize the hand of God in their life. Scripture is given to us so that we might recognize the works of His hands. This is how we are enabled to discern between the "truth" and the 'lie."In ChristJeff
Brother Ormly quoted:
1 Cor. 1:10 (KJV) Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.
.. The "substance" that causes us to draw near to our Lord finds it source in the Light. The content of the "substance" is unique to each individual who submits to the Light. The content of the "substance" is the energy expended upon the clay by the Potter's hands. This energy is brought forth by the Holy Spirit. It is dependent upon the wisdom of God through the Holy Spirit to birth in us the nature of our Savior Jesus Christ. The "substance" of this work is a unique experience in each individual because we all differ in the things we once hoped in. It is Christ who shows us our darkness. It is Christ who brings situations into each of our lives that teach us about our own nature, and about His righteousness. It is Christ's effort brought forth by the Holy Spirit, that begins to change the "substance" of what we hope for. As the 'substance" is added to according to His wisdom, we are changed from faith to faith, glory to glory.
We experience how He loves us. We experience how we grieve the Holy Spirit. We experience how He overcomes the things we once strived to obtain. As we learn a new way of life sustained by living water we also begin to "know" that we are in the shelter of His wings. We "know" a hope that will ever increase. This becomes the evidence of things not seen by this world.
Grace. It's stupendous.
This evidence testifies of the glory of the Lord working in us which hallows His Name before this lost world and all of it's vanity.
_________________Diane
