| Poster | Thread | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Re: | | Quote:
But just as Jimmy Swaggart fell and Ravenhill was upset over that continually, also if Ravenhill knew of Paul Cain's fall he would treat him in the same way.
Actually, the part where he praised Paul Cain was in reference to the fall of Swaggart... he said Cain was different because of the accountability of his mother.
Sometimes I wish I could just give Brother Len a big hug... I suppose he was the kind of guy who liked big hugs. He was so trusting in everyone, he had such a big heart for everyone... and it was betrayed a lot too.
Maybe I should track down David Ravenhill and give him a hug for his pops.
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Ian Smith
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|  2007/1/12 16:18 | Profile | Goldminer
Member
Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama
| | Re: | | Quote:
They prophesy for money and bleed people dry.
I wonder where this information comes from. I have been to a number of MorningStar's meetings and have followed their publications for many years and I have never seen what you are saying happen. They take up no more offerings than the normal church, which they are a church and I have never seen them espouse giving to get.Was it first hand that your witnessed this? Or is it from someone else?
Also was there not a school of the prophets in the Old Testament?
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KLC
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| | 2007/1/12 16:49 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
God alone knows the hearts...and while I love this website, when I read posts like King Jimmy's and the pompous self righteous indignation against other believers with whom his doctrinal position may be different and castigates them as he did, it deeply greives me and makes me never want to never visit this forum again. How can we call ourselves Christians and fall into this deplorable trap of setting ourselves up as such righteous judges???? It really baffles me.
It is hardly self-righteous indignation, nor is it simply treating somebody with whom I have a doctrinal disagreement with harshly. I have no problem getting along with other believers who don't hold the exact same doctrines as I. I get along with Cessationists & Calvinists alike just fine, and admire greatly some of them, even though I disagree with them. My friend, you were a bit presumptuous. I've been on this board a long time and have treated people kindly.
Rather than being self-righteous, it is righteous indignation that is jealous for the glory of God. Sadly, many of these "prophetic ministers" are far from being jealous over God's glory. That is why they give meaningless prophecies that bear nothing of God's heart. I live not too far from Morning Star's Charlotte campus, and have had occasion of visiting it before.
I have met a many people who have sat under Joyner & company's ministries, and am deeply grieved over the fruit (or actually, lack thereof) of their ministries. False prophecies and the resulting confusion abound. I've seen so many people with crippled Christian lives because of a "word" that they were trusting in failed.
One of the folks from the local "School of the Spirit" (Morning Star) came and prophesied over an individual at my church who was in a horrible car accident that left him with severe brain damage. To this individuals father they prophesied this person would be healed on Fathers Day of last year. Fathers Day came and went, and the guy was still in the same condition, if not worse. Then they said, "oops, misheard God... still growing in my gift..." and reset the date to a little down the road. That date came and passed as well.
Joyner and company are producing a legion of false prophets in our generation, because they themselves are false prophets. And all the time, they are stuffing their pockets full with the money they are making from all their "Prophetic Conferences" and publications that teach one "how-to" prophesy.
My judgment is righteous judgment. I don't take false prophets lightly. Nor do the Scriptures.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2007/1/12 17:33 | Profile | KingJimmy
Member
Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC
| | Re: | | Quote:
I wonder where this information comes from. I have been to a number of MorningStar's meetings and have followed their publications for many years and I have never seen what you are saying happen.
Money in the prophetic movement is made out of the never ending stream of conferences these guys hold. Then of course, there are the tapes, books, video's, music, dvd's etc. They are far from being cheap.
Quote:
Also was there not a school of the prophets in the Old Testament?
There was a school of the prophets in the Old Testament. But they never taught people how-to prophesy. The so-called "School of the Prophets" was simply a group of prophets who generally centered around a prophet like Elijah. It seems "the sons of the prophets" (their disciples) simply aided the Sr. Prophet in his ministry as servants, and at times acted as arms of his ministry.
But, this is a far cry from being like the Morning Star school, where people are given some room to "flap their wings" and learn to fly through a trial & error process whereby one graduates by finally giving prophecies that are a lot more accurate than inaccurate.
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Jimmy H
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| | 2007/1/12 17:40 | Profile | iansmith
Member
Joined: 2006/3/22
Posts: 963
Wheaton, IL
| | Re: Judge vs. Judge | | How to deal with a judgemental situation.
One of the worst ways to confront a judgemental person or comment is with another judgemental person or comment.
A rule to live by is that when one percieves someone as being judgemental, don't be quick to point this out to them (or you may be falling in the same hole!), instead, encourage them to seek the heart of God!
In this situation one may say 'aren't you a little harsh to make such broad statements against such a doctrine, you're so judgemental!' Instead one COULD say, 'I don't know what your experience is with XYZ teaching or ministry, but I have seen them producing fruit (give examples), and I think it would be great if we could be more open minded about them!'
Instead of appearing judgemental, you appear knowledgable, encouraging and excited about XYZ ministry.
You could even go so far as to say that 'no ministry, theology, or teaching is 100% accurate and perfect, but I myself am seeking to know the heart of God, and worry about the theology later.' Thus admitting, that even though you support XYZ ministry, it may not be perfect, but that you don't believe in XYZ ministry, but instead your focus is on Jesus!
If everyone practiced this, this forum would be more civil on many fronts!
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Ian Smith
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| | 2007/1/12 17:42 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: Prophesy this! | | ian wrote:
Quote:
So now I'm caught in the middle and he doesn't know whose Jesus to believe in! I'm really at a loss for words as what to do.
Quote:
I want the gift of prophesy for rebuking!
Brother, you just have to do as we were taught at the Crises Pregnancy Center to do when confronted with situations like you are describing: confront! But how to do it remains the vexing question. We would ask them what do you think God thinks about this act/situation? Brother, in the deep south, the people will tell you accurately what God thinks: that they are going to hell OR that they believe that they are so good otherwise they are outside of the judgement of God! (Not accurate.)They say that, not me! Really. My point is that [likely] most people will know in their heart it is sin, now all you have to do is confirm to them what they are hearing the Spirit say! Jesus always confronted sin when he saw it and we cringe when we think about doing it like Jesus did.
Hope this helps.....I understand your dilemna, it is vexing, especially if you know these people on the personal level.
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2007/1/12 18:42 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | chadster wrote:
Quote:
How can we call ourselves Christians and fall into this deplorable trap of setting ourselves up as such righteous judges????
Mind of I ask you a question: would you evaluate the Apostle Paul with the same critisism you are directing towards people on this forum -identifying modern false prophets? Consider 1Timothy 1:19-20: Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: 1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. 2Timothy 2:17-18: And their word will eat, as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Personally, I am glad when people are so kind to alert me to people who are false prophets. Often it will confirm to me what I had been sensing in my spirit. If I am ignorant of these people's existance, I will now know to not bother with their lit, their ministry, etc. Unless you have been deceived in your life by a false teaching, you will find this appreciation difficult. Trust me, I have already fallen into this trap, and when I discovered it, I had to deal with resentment for people who should have known but did not inform me. While that was relatively easy to deal with, what was not was my own ignorance and that I shared this 'doctrine' publically. I had a hard time forgiving myself. Trust me, THIS is hard! It took years before I could ever talk about it, it was so bad.
So please, consider that the people who are so kind to inform us that some people are not preaching the true gospel are doing the rest of us a favor, including me and you.
Blessings,
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2007/1/12 19:12 | Profile | unseen_call
Member
Joined: 2006/8/11
Posts: 4
| | Re: | | At the first writing of this forum, I did not intend to begin a debate on false prophets/teachings and/or allow for condemnation to fly at everyone in such ways. I posted this so that I can find out more about Paul's ministry, teaching, beliefs etc. Yes,I realize that he has been involved in sexual sin and has been addictied to alcohol. He lives his live in the eyes of the Lord and the Lord is the only one to judge. 'Let the one who has known no sin to cast the first stone.' The funny thing is that the only one who can cast this stone refuses to do so.
As for Rick Joyner and his "company," it was also not my intention to drag his name through the mud or even to bring him into this. What is being said on here I do not believe. I do not believe he is a false prophet/false teacher nor are those in this nature around him. No, I can not speak from personal experience nor for everyone, but I have read some of his books and prophesies he has given and I believe them to be true. This is my personal opinion and the opinion of many around me.
Thus being said, I would appreciate if we could stick to the topic at hand and not continue to slander and judge one another. When the Lord looks at each of us, He sees His precious son/daughter. To continue speaking this way about one of the Lord's, is a sin and will hurt His heart. So please, can we just stick to the topic at hand?! Thank you. |
| | 2007/1/12 20:43 | Profile | loveroftruth
Member
Joined: 2006/10/25
Posts: 25
| | Re: Dragging A Name Thru thr Mud or Exposing Doctrine to the Light of the Word | | You did not drag Rick Joyner's name through the mud nor Paul Cains. Nor did anyone else for this matter. Both of these men sought the limelight amongst God's people. Therefore they must stand in the light of His Word.
But we are commanded to test their doctrine, and prophecies and accompanying lifestyles with the light of the Word of God.
The principle of Deut.13:3-4 in which God is testing our hearts to see if we love Him with all our heart and soul and to keep walking after Him and holding fast to Him obedience.
This principle still holds true in the N.T.
God allows false prophets to test and try and purify our love for Him if we are willing.
Why would God bring full revival if we are unwilling to be diligent in this manner.
Some thoughts and Scripture,
Doug
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| | 2007/1/12 21:56 | Profile | ginnyrose
Member
Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7534
Mississippi
| | Re: | | Sir,
If what you wanted was to find more sites that contained info about Paul Cain, his sermons, all you had to do was google Paul Cain.....
There is one thing I find so very disturbing about people in ministry who are caught in gross sin. How many come forward on their own and say they are guilty and ask for forgiveness? Most of them are discovered by someone else and then confronted. Most had been involved in immorality a long time, it was not just one isolated incident...it was an ongoing thing. BIG difference. The sin of David was a one time thing; the woman brought to Jesus was told to go sin no more. Jesus did not tell her he would forgive without repentence. The OT law required a person involved in adultery to be stoned, not just the woman but the man as well. The story there tells us she was caught in the act, so why did they not bring him to Jesus for evaluation? Sir, immorality is terrible, ruins many lives....one cannot be alarmed enough about this sin. I have worked with fornicators and adulterers for many years besides having lived almost 60 years. The problem with modern Christianity is their ho-hum attitude towards this sin and the people committing it. We will never experience revival unless we develope a horror for sin, adultery included. If any minister is found guilty, for the sake of Christ he needs to be defrocked. It brings shame to the church if this is not the case. God is holy and he expects his ministers to reflect his holiness as well.
The last I looked I John 4:1 - is still in my Bible and the Holy Spirit still expects us to follow that command.
ginnyrose
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Sandra Miller
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| | 2007/1/12 23:48 | Profile |
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