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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Purpose Driven Church or the Church of Jesus Christ?

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Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Paulus, I think you are a little hard on Nicky Gumbel, I have done Alpha twice and it is a great introduction to the Christian faith. Very early on he states that we must repent of everything we know we've done wrong. At the end of some meetings he asks people to pray a certain prayer which is not a/the "sinners pray" which is supposed to guarantee forgiveness to everyone who utters it but merley says something like "if you want to start a relationship with God then please speak these words in your mind".


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Mark Nash

 2004/3/1 10:07Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

I purchased Hard to Believe by MacArthur two days ago and read it through the same day. Very good book, but not a lot of new ideas from people who keep up with MacArthur as I do. The main portion that I really liked was the discussion of how ridiculous the Gospel seemed to Jews and Greeks at the time of the apostles and how crucifixion was viewed at that time by the different groups of people.

He also tears into the seeker-sensitive group right along with the health and wealth people as they have much in common. One is concerned about what God can do for their wallet while the other is concerned about what He can do for their self-esteem and felt needs.

I found the book very challenging, as I often do when MacArthur is the author, and it really pushed me to question myself as to whether I'm following wholeheartedly enough. He really beats you up on how your fruit looks and reminds you of the cursed fig tree.

Finally, he really nails the issue of spreading the gospel well. It is just plain and simple fact that anyone who preaches that a crucified Jew 2000 years ago was God and is the only way to heaven is going to run into opposition and humiliation. You will look like a fool and maybe tear your family apart. The fact is that you have to go at it like a fanatic anyway or risk hell. Anyone concerned about how they look in another's eyes isn't fit. If you die of embarassment when people laugh at you you'd better get over it. The whole seeker-friendly movement is based on trying to be able to bring people to Christ without any embarassment, grief, or confrontation. If God wanted that He'd have made the story easy to swallow and more inclusive. The Gospel message is a little offensive for a reason.

He also throws in a good Calvinist quote: "Sometimes we don't preach the Gospel well enough for the non-elect to reject it." AMEN.

 2004/3/2 19:49Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re:

Well I am with you here Nobody.
Been familiar with John MacArthur for quite a few years now. Can still remember thinking that he was 'harsh' early on, but that was because he was challenging me. Of course I was later to find here a gentleman by the name of Leonard Ravenhill and...

Definetly a throw back to what is the norm nowadays. Did you catch the interview a few weeks back with Phil Johnson? Missed a lot of it but the bit's I caught were really good, re: his testimony, the auto accident (yikes!) and so forth.

He has been a mentor to me and a great help in pulling me out of the whole prosperity/wof stuff 4 or 5 years ago.


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Mike Balog

 2004/3/2 21:13Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

crsschk wrote:

Been familiar with John MacArthur for quite a few years now. Can still remember thinking that he was 'harsh' early on, but that was because he was challenging me.

There is a more perfect way. One man can challenge another can condemn, but it is by the Holy Spirit that one lives. Many unknowingly preach the law and live under the law. Their flocks suffer as the Jews did when they realized that the Holy Scripture did not tell them how to make the Sabbath holy.

Know His voice.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/3/3 11:51Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

11And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ, 13till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head--Christ-- 16from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

Don't give me nebulous rambling statements about following God rather than His gifted men. The Holy Spirit does help one discern truth and interpret, but never in Scripture are we told that this replaces or supercedes studying the Word. We are to teach if gifted in that way and always to be teachable. Those who are taught by the "rhema" straight from God and leave the "logos" on the shelf are the most worthless undiscerning foolish Christians I've ever met.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

Here's my nebulous ambiguity in reply. Many unknowingly preach cheap grace and need to smacked upside the head with the truth that James taught. Fruitless fig trees will be cursed. Faith is shown in works.

 2004/3/3 14:12Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Tell me how to obey this precept. "For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it."

Those who follow His voice will lose this life. He will forsake all to follow Christ. Only He can teach you. The parables of the Holy Scripture will become your life. The written word must be the foundation. But who believes?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/3/3 14:56Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Nobody wrote:

Don't give me nebulous rambling statements about following God rather than His gifted men. The Holy Spirit does help one discern truth and interpret, but never in Scripture are we told that this replaces or supercedes studying the Word.

Do these gifted men believe the Word? Do they believe:

"If anyone defiles the temple of God, God will destroy him. For the temple of God is holy, which you are." 1 Corinthians 3:17

"Therefore [b]brethren[/b], we are debtors--not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. For if you live according to the flesh you will die..." Romans 8:12-13

"For is is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance...Hebrews 6:4-6

"Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turned a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death...James 5:19-20

Do these men believe what these verses say?

How about this;

"Or do you think that the Scriptures says in vain, The Spirit who dwells in us yearns jealously?"

Do these men believe what this verse says? Do they teach the significance of this? The Holy Spirit indwelled the OT saints too.

Do these men teach that Christ's work is predestined not man?

Do these men teach that we are reconciled to God by His death, much more we are saved by His life. Roman 5:11

Do these men teach that two covenants exit now? The Law that condemns and the Law of Faith. What do they teach about faith? What gospel do they preach?

No one is good but God. Maybe I am nebulous. Paul always prayed for the church that they would know the depts of God's love for them. He could never explain with words His relationship with Jesus.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/3/3 15:47Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

Why bother gifting men as teachers if no one is better off by listening to them?

Just because many have erroneous views doesn't mean you throw everyone out. The Bereans double-checked everything but were still eager to be taught by a man. They were commended for that and therefore made an example of how we should be. If we were supernaturally filled with all the knowledge we needed there wouldn't be a Word and a command to study it.

 2004/3/3 17:27Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Men are called to preach the word. My question is why are they afraid too? The Holy Scriptures teach us that there have been faithful and faithless generations.

Jesus said that when He comes back it will be like the times of Noah. Jeremiah or Isaiah wrote that the shepherds of their time healed the people superficially.

We have shepherds today that deny the words of Jesus. We have men who use the word deliberately out of context to prove [b]their[/b] law. The Purpose Driven Book is a prime example. Good fruit does not come from a rotten tree.

I am sorry if I offend some or many, I can't stop from preaching. I can only teach as I have been taught. As a berean, ask the Holy Spirit to show you in Scripture. Look for the Life, I can't make anyone understand. Only He can. My understanding is insufficient. But this is the path that I am on.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/3/3 18:21Profile
eagleswings
Member



Joined: 2003/12/30
Posts: 297
Connecticut, USA

 Re: Look for the Life


Jeff wrote
"Look for the Life, I can't make anyone understand. Only He can. My understanding is insufficient. But this is the path that I am on."

Jesus said,
“And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do, that I may HAVE ETERNAL LIFE? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt ENTER INTO LIFE, keep the commandments” (Matthew 19:16,17).

Yet, Paul said,
“… for if there had been a law given which could have GIVEN LIFE, verily righteousness should have been by the law” (Galatians 3:21b).

Was Paul contradicting Jesus?



“Weary millions tramp about in a no-man’s land of religious frustration and defeat, professing for doctrines realities which they never have experienced, while legalisms abound in the very name of grace. I came back with such a cry from a recent overseas trip that the Gospel, the everlasting Gospel of Jesus Christ needs to be proclaimed, not so much to the world as, first, to the Church. It is amazing how few Christians know it; how few understand it; how few have been affected by it; how few are living in it; how many who call themselves “Christians” enjoying the benefits, so-called, of the New Covenant are living essential Old Covenant lives, bound and under the law, … ‘God gave His only-begotten Son, full of grace,’ and how many of us have yet to taste that grace. Legalisms abound in a no-man’s land of religious frustration and defeat. Weary millions profess for doctrines realities which they never have experienced.

“You have to excuse me for being a simple believer and a naive man, but I just have a respect for words, and had it even as an atheist. How much more then as a believer. That the things that we speak ought to be true or we ought not to say them. I’ll tell you that every glib and facile easy kind of speaking is going to cost us plenty in our own spirit and life, for the Sprit of God is first and pre-eminently the Spirit of Truth before He is any other thing.”
Art Katz, “And They Crucified Him” (available here at Sermonindex in both audio and transcription)



Roger



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Roger P.

 2004/3/3 23:42Profile





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