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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Love your enemies or punish them in Hell

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Agent001
Member



Joined: 2003/9/30
Posts: 386
Toronto, Ontario, Canada

 Re:

DanielCourtney:

That's a counter-productive way of evangelism!


Jake:

I have had this discussion with you before. Your presuppositions regarding the sources of authority and inspiration of scripture are so profoundly different from others on this board that there is little common ground on which a meanful discussion could be conducted, especially in a forum titled [i][b]Scriptural[/b] Debates[/i].

Try reading some books on apologetics by evangelicals and see if they make sense (e.g. [i]Christian Apologetics[/i], by Norman Geisler). Then maybe we could discuss further.


_________________
Sam

 2004/2/26 10:20Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

Jake, from what I can gather you believe whatever your "inner witness" leads you to believe.
You pick and choose whatever it tells you is correct, my question to you is, how do you know what side your "inner witness" is on?


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/2/26 10:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Jake writes Yes, Philologos, Jesus was God in the flesh, but how this is so is a mystery to me and should be a mystery to all of us. (Claims of Virgin birth was a common means of deifying people throughout the ages.) Did Jesus have free will? or was He a puppet on God's strings? I believe He had free will as a human being and thus, He could not have been identical in nature with God the Father.

Jake, not God in flesh, but 'come in flesh'. This is not just divine presence but incarnation; God becomes man. 'god in flesh' may be nothing more than pantheism. The Word became Flesh; this is incarnation and the starting point of Christianity. He was 'identical in nature' with God the Father, that is the whole point. He became man but did not cease to be God. He lived his life on earth as a man, not because He was different in nature to His Father but because He chose to. It was part of the identification process. I presume your reference to virgin birth being a common means of deifying people throughout the ages shows that you see no unique and infallible revelation in Christianity. The revelation of God in Christ is just another addition to all the 'truth' in all the religions. Jake, this is Buddhism. You may be a very nice Buddhist, but this is not Christian.

What I find strange and offensive is that while I claim Jesus in numerous posts on this site, people like Danielcourtney continue to urge me to "just get saved." I have a different take on the Scriptures and Christianity but my faith, like yours, is in Jesus, the only son of God.

But I have no idea who this Jesus of yours is. He is clearly not the Jesus of Bible revelation; who is he?

For me the saving grace of Jesus is his profound teachings and demonstation of love. He teaches us how to live and offers us His Holy Spirit as a counselor.

Salvation is not by means of profound teaching or demonstrations of love but through vicarious substitutionary atonement. But this is something else you are strangely silent on. Either Christ died for the sins of the world or He didn't. If He did to add anything, good works included, is blasphemous. What do you think was taking place on the cross? "God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us." This was not to show us a better way of life, it was 'for us' that is instead of us, in our place. I don't know whether you believe in vicarious, substitutionary atonement; perhaps you would tell me? If you do believe that Christ bore our sins in his body on the tree what possible purpose could there be for progressive reincarnations in which we 'work out the consequences of our sin'. I'm not even sure you believe in the concept of sin.

The bottom line is that we both may say we have faith in Jesus, the only son of God but that statement means nothing if every word in the phrase is used differently. I don't know what you mean by faith, in, Jesus, the only, son of God. All these words have biblical concepts but you mix and match to such a degree that they no longer communicate sense.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/2/26 10:58Profile









 Re: When she tries to go out she gets kicked in the face


Nobody.

You kick your cat in the face?

for shame!! Get a life!

 2004/2/26 11:02









 Re: Buddhism and Christ

PHilologos:

I have not studied Buddhism. I don't even know what it is about, except for the fact that they are, in a sense, atheistic. I'm not interested in this religion at all.

A common phrase in Christianity is that Jesus died for our sins. My question is what is the essential part of His sacrifice that enabled the forgiveness of sins? Was it His submission to God's will, when He could have thwarted the cross? Was it the humiliation and beatings He endured? Was it the act of being put up on the cross? Was it the dying in itself? Was it the Resurrection? Was it the the Ascension into Heaven? At what point did we all become saved in this scenario?

Personnaly, I think it was the act of submission to God's will that was most important. We all are confronted with things God asks us to do or not do that are against our personal desires. When we deny ourselves and do what God bids us we take up our cross and follow after Jesus.
Jake


 2004/2/26 11:13
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re:

1 Peter 2:24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/2/26 11:31Profile
moreofHim
Member



Joined: 2003/10/15
Posts: 1632


 Re:

Jake,

It's not about getting 'saved'- as Danielcourtney said. it's about 'surrender'.

If we really want to live like Jesus taught, we will surrender everything to the Father. That includes our will, our wants, our own logic.

It's also about 'trust'. we can't surrender unless we trust. Do you believe in total surrender to God?

This to me- is the epitome of Christianity. I claimed to be a Christian for many years- even though I had not really surrendered everything in my heart, mind and life to God. I wanted to still keep some things back to myself.

Jesus was the ultimate example here. He came to do the will of his Father. He did nothing of Himself- only those things He saw the Father doing.

God wants to be KING on the throne of your heart- not 98% Him and even 2% you. It is normal to have questions but then turn them over quickly to God and TRUST what He has said. If we claim to rule in any part in our lives or heart- then I question anyone if they are really a Christian- a follower of Christ.

We cannot have him as our First love and have other loves too- even knowledge, opinions, whatever. He is jealous for you and your love for Him.

Finding out all of these answers, increasing in man's knowledge, knowing all there is to know- this is meaningless to God. He is knowledge, wisdom, the Answer. The only thing we need to be concerned about is Surrender- to him. Every single bit, every aspect of our lives. We were bought with a price and the least we can do is surrender everything to Him.

In Him, Chanin


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Chanin

 2004/2/26 14:01Profile
nobody
Member



Joined: 2003/9/16
Posts: 64


 Re:

Yes, Jake, I do wish that we were in a little hippie commune where everyone loved and was naturally good and no punishment or discipline was ever needed. Unfortunately for your theory, this is far from reality. If I let my cat do whatever she wanted and never smacked her I'd have a condo-barn in no time. If my son never got spanked he would be a terror and turn out like many of the punks in our society. If my God never disciplined me I'd be on my way to Hell.

If God had said over and over that He was only love and never claimed to be holy and just I'd be on your side. Unfortunately He is supreme, holy, and just. Holy taken to the third degree of repetition! His love will not contradict His holiness.

It is even more scripturally obvious that Satan will be in hell forever than man. So how is okay to put him there forever while people get off easy? Aren't humans who rebel just as much an offense to God as angels who rebel? Why eternally punish Satan but just destroy men? Aren't men's souls eternal like God and His angels?

One final note: Once when my cat escaped me she was hit by a car and had her jaw hanging loose for a day before undergoing surgery and healing for two months. I'd say she should appreciate those kicks that keep her inside quite a lot. In the same way I appreciate all the discipline I've received from my parents and God (even when it was severe) because it has molded me into a person I'd never have been on my own.

 2004/2/26 14:26Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Personnaly, I think it was the act of submission to God's will that was most important. We all are confronted with things God asks us to do or not do that are against our personal desires. When we deny ourselves and do what God bids us we take up our cross and follow after Jesus.
Jake

Oh I wish I could be with you and talk this through. How would submission to God's will affect the acculmulated sins of the whole world, past, present and future? This is moral influence theory; it says Christ died to change the way we think and act. This is not revelation of God but man's rationalisation. The Bible reveals vicarious, substitutionary atonement not the setting up of an example.

Isaiah says God "gathered together upon Him the sins of us all". He died under the sentence of God's righteous anger against sin and sinner. Like the scapegoat of old He carried it away from God's presence.

I am not for or against Gibson's "The Passion of the Christ". My anxiety is that it will present the notion that pain caused by whips and nails was the suffering referred to in 1 Peter "Christ hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God" [1Pet 3:18] This word suffering in Greek is pascho. (It is where our word passion comes from.) If Gibson is saying that the physical suffering of Christ brought us to God, he is in error. If you say his submission to the will of God brought us to God you are in similar error. It was not a public demonstration. The work was achieved in 3 hours of pitch darkness with no witnesses.

It was the sacrifice of Himself offered without spot to God, upon which God could lay the sins of the whole world. It was the suffering of separation from one who had been His eternal companion. Peter's single verse is remarkable for its fullness.
Christ suffered once. One all embracing, never to be repeated, sacrifice.
suffered for sins: He suffered for (peri-regarding) sins. His suffering was in relation to sin. The physical suffering was merely the outward shadow of what was taking place in spirit. This atonement in Bible language.
the just for the unjust; this is a different word for 'for'. meaning 'instead of'. This is substitionary atonement.
to bring us to God; this is reconciliation.

He died not as an example but as a blood sacrifice to enable God to be both just and the justifier of those who put their faith in Christ. Redemption was accomplished in the cross, which is why the triumphant cry of "it is finished" came as the cry from the darkness. This achieved redemption is applied to individuals by the Holy Spirit as they rest all their faith on what He has done for them.

Upon a life I did not live, upon a death I did not die, upon another's life, another's death, I stake my whole eternity. This Jake is faith, everything else is mockery of the word. And this is why utter dependence upon Christ as God incarnate is not an optional extra to Christian faith. It is at the heart of the matter. No other life than the life of God Himself could have sustained this burden or achieved this salvation.

GLORY, GLORY, GLORY TO THE LAMB.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/2/26 14:31Profile









 Re:

PHilologos,

I am with you on the fact that Jesus was a perfect attonment for sin which we could not have otherwise rid ourselves of. He was not just an example for us, as His death substituted for our own spiritual death. But clearly He was meant an example for us to follow, as well.

Question: Did God the Father die on the cross, too? You seem to be saying this. If so, who raised Christ from the Dead?
Jake

 2004/2/26 15:01





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