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IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Mahoney

Quote:
If your statement is entirely true, then we will have to blame Noah for the wickedness on the Earth at the time of the flood. Noah was a preacher of righteousness, so I am sure he prayed. Was it Noah's fault that God still had to judge the world?



well not necessarily, Noah preached righteousness and nobody listened so it wasn't his fault. God at no point in God's dealing with Noah did He say that He would spare the world, that was a moot issue. but we see in later times where prayers of intercession have prevented disaster for a season. For us however we must ask, have we preached righteousness as we ought? you said yourself later on that many of those around us are not in Christ and we have not preached to them. This is the thing right here. the world is wicked, no doubt, it is inherently wicked, however those of us who have been saved are partly to blame for the continuing wickedness because we have not wholly lived as we ought. our hypocrisies condemn us and give the world occasion to blaspheme God and this is displeasing to God and so even us His Church are ripe for the judgement also which comes before that of the world.

Quote:
I completely agree with you that we need to cry out to God for lost men and women. But we do not pray for them because some impending judgment is supposedly coming upon America or some other country. We do not pray for them based upon the political and economic situation in our respective countries. We do not pray for them because of coming judgment.



i agree with you here, the idea that we pray to avert judgment smacks of a selfishness which is most insidious. we are to pray to seek and play a part in the coming of His kingdom which includes drawing souls to Himself. i don't think that anyone here seeks that we pray for anything less or other than the coming of the Kingdom or that we seek for anything which isn't sympathetic to God but ourselves.

Quote:
Mankind, apart from Christ, is already in the grave.



that's right and the idea is to pray that God may be glorified through the salvation of these very lost ones.

Quote:
When it comes to the Church, and God's judgment upon the Church, I think some of these preachers are more angry than God.



i think not. that's probably what Israel thought when the prophets were sent to them hence Israel repented not and was judged for Her transgression even though she is the covenant people of GOd.

Quote:
If we really want to have a burden, forget nuclear weapons and Iran and Islam. Forget(as it has been said) "NEWSPAPER THEOLOGY".



well i think the thing to observe is that these events are not happening independant of approval from heaven so we need to see them in the light of what God is doing in the world now.

Quote:
Surely if God wanted to judge us, surely if God wanted to beat us down and declare that we were prayer less and that we deserve judgment just like Sodom and Gomorrah, surely He would have done that when we HATED HIM. When we were HIS ENEMIES!



actually the judgment for us is that much more harsh because of the Blood of the Cross. if we come to Christ and trample His blood as said here in Hebrews chapt 10

[b]26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.[/b]

remember Israel? God didn't spare her judgment when she transgressed and He will not spare the Church either but will chasten us as He needs to to conform us to the image of Christ.God don't change. see also the letters to the 7 Churches in the Revelation. if the judgements threatened to 5 of them applied then, they apply now to us also.

Quote:
What did Paul do? Did he say, If you do not repent God is going to cut you off? Your sins are worse than Sodom and Gomorrah and so God has to judge you.



Paul reminded the Churches of the need to return to what they did at first. John straight up told them in the letters to the 7 Churches what would happen to them if they didn't shape up. by that time it was already past the stage of talking so they got warned that judgement would come because they didn't listen to what Paul said years before.

Quote:
I think that the majority of this prognosticating is a distraction from the Gospel and the preaching of Christ.



The Gospel also means that while there is salvation, we dare not take the Blood of Christ as a profane thing and we need to be serious about our relationship with God. if we look at what happenned to Israel when she goofed off, we have some idea of what NOT to do and if we do, what may happen. Judgment begins at the house of God...then it hits the world


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 13:54Profile
hisremnant
Member



Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana

 Re:

praise Jesus!!

Dear Ironman i did not mean to infer that God does not use one nation to judge another. Of course HE does. HE used the Hebrews to judge Canaan, the Assyrians to judge Israel, Babylon to judge Judah and Persia to judge Babylon etc.

Not only has HE done this HE will do this again. HE does not change and the way HE deals with nations does not change. i believe that this nation (America) is under judgment now. And i believe HE will most probably use China and North Korea as HIS instruments of judgment.

My comments earlier were meant to show the difference between God dealing directly with nations (acts of God, natural disasters) and indirectly through Satan (war, terrorism etc)
and also to profess my belief that HE is neither unknowing or uncaring of even the smallest of things.

Blessings Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17

 2007/1/7 20:33Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Rich

Quote:

hisremnant wrote:

praise Jesus!!

Dear Ironman i did not mean to infer that God does not use one nation to judge another. Of course HE does. HE used the Hebrews to judge Canaan, the Assyrians to judge Israel, Babylon to judge Judah and Persia to judge Babylon etc.

Not only has HE done this HE will do this again. HE does not change and the way HE deals with nations does not change. i believe that this nation (America) is under judgment now. And i believe HE will most probably use China and North Korea as HIS instruments of judgment.

My comments earlier were meant to show the difference between God dealing directly with nations (acts of God, natural disasters) and indirectly through Satan (war, terrorism etc)
and also to profess MY belief that HE is neither unknowing or uncaring of even the smallest of things.

Blessings Hisservant rich

Matthew 4:17



praise God indeed. i misread your post and i humbly apologize and ask your forgiveness.thank you for clarifying that so we're on the same page on the occasions on which God moves and those on which God gives the enemy room to manouver and cause trouble. DUH!!! :smart:


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/1/7 21:28Profile









 Re:

Quote:
26 For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.




With all due respect Bro Ironman, you cannot take a section of scripture out of the context of the Book of Hebrews, and the 10th chapter of Hebrews, and declare that that is how God judges His church.

The writer of Hebrews was writing to Jewish believers that were coming under persecution because they had believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and, of course, turned away from the old temple and the sacrifices and turned to the One, True and Final Sacrifice...Jesus Christ.

The writer's main point was to show the Superiority of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

In Chapter 10 the writer was showing that Christ was the substance to all the types and shadows of those old sacrifices. He was showing them that Jesus was the fulfillment of all of the old covenant.

He said God did not find any pleasure in the blood of bulls and goats. The blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin.

He required a body...a man...someone that would do His will completely!

God required someone that would obey Him even to death...yes the death of the Cross. And it is by that Perfect Sacrifice that we have been sanctified.

One, Perfect, Final, Sacrifice. The FINISHED WORK of Christ. This WORK has perfected them forever that are sanctified.
----------------------------------------
The believing Jews that were being persecuted were forsaking the Sacrifice of Christ and going back to the old covenant.

They were forsaking the Substance and going back to the type and shadow.

When they did this it was an abomination. The willful sin they were committing was going back to the old sacrifices. There was no forgiveness in the old sacrifices even when the old covenant was still in place. It was only as a man or woman put their faith in the coming Messiah that their sins were forgiven.

Much more after God did away with the old covenant and established the New Covenant. If a man turns away from the Blood of Christ and returns to the blood of bulls and goats, he tramples underfoot the Son of God and counts the blood of the New Covenant wherewith he was sanctified an unholy thing.

Forgiveness does not await that man. The only thing that awaits that man is a "fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation."

He goes on to exhort them to keep their confidence in Christ, and he reminds them that the Just Shall Live By Faith...under the old covenant and the New! That is the way it has always been ..."The Just(ified) Shall Live By Faith!


Quote:
remember Israel? God didn't spare her judgment when she transgressed and He will not spare the Church either but will chasten us as He needs to to conform us to the image of Christ.God don't change.



Though we can look back and learn tremendous lessons from the Nation of Israel we do have to remember that Israel, as a nation, was under a different covenant than we are. As a nation, they made a covenant with God at Mount Sinai, and that covnenant, and the blessings of that covenant, were based upon their obedience, as a Nation, to the commands of God.

As Moses told them (paraphase):

If you do this, you will live!
If you do this, you will die!

That was the essence of the Sinaiatic covenant.
As a nation, they had life and blessing from God, based upon thier obedience.

Not so with us!

Under the New Covenant 1 John says:

He that has the Son HAS LIFE...

Hebrews says we have not come to Mt Sinai, but Mt. Zion.





Quote:
Paul reminded the Churches of the need to return to what they did at first



No... if you go back and read, even in 1 Corinthians, the first thing Paul does is tell them the Gospel again. He tells them the good things that God has already done for them, and then he exhorts them to obedience.

Paul was not ashamed of the Gospel becuase he knew, by experience, that it was the power of God unto salvation.

Salvation includes Justification, Sanctification, Glorification. The Gospel, the Good News of what God had done in Christ, will carry us through until we see Him face to face. This was Paul's theology. This was Paul's methodology.

Quote:
The Gospel also means that while there is salvation, we dare not take the Blood of Christ as a profane thing and we need to be serious about our relationship with God.



No...the Gospel means one thing -

The Good News of what God has done FOR US in Christ!

That is what the Gospel means!

Now the law has a purpose. The law can reveal our sin to us. The law can convict us and drive us back to Christ if we have fallen.

But the Gospel, the True Gospel, has but one purpose.

To make us free, so that we can walk with God in liberty!

 2007/1/7 23:19
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re:

Dear Compton,

when I read this, before I looked over and saw where you live, I thought you must live in Alabama. Sounds real familiar.


_________________
KLC

 2007/1/7 23:56Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: nuclear attacks

Dear Taco,

When you say there will be no nuclear attacks, Are you prophecying?


_________________
KLC

 2007/1/8 0:02Profile
Goldminer
Member



Joined: 2006/11/7
Posts: 1178
Alabama

 Re: does God judge today

Dear his remnant,

I read a message by Rick Joyner about 9/11 attack. He said people could call it many things and debate it's origin, but he believed that if people don't want God and refuse to ask His presence then He honors the desires of men's hearts. Therefore the rejection of God causes His hand of protection to be removed and events like 9/11 and Katrina take place. I know that N.Y.(and I know that there are many godly folks in N.Y. like wonderful David Wilkerson)has allowed homosexuals to parade openly down it'streets and the same week Katrina happened they had a preverse celebration called Southern Decedence scheduled. The same cities reject prayer in schools, etc. We as a society by in large have refused to welcome Him in our midst. Here in Alabama Judge Roy Moore was made to take the ten commandments out of the court house. Visible society doesn't want to retain God in their lives, therefore rejecting Him, His hand of protection is removed and the devil or our own sowing has free reign, unless we humble ourselves and repent.

Unfortunately only small numbers of the body of Christ has taken our responsibility for this scripture seriously, and I'm certainly not patting myself on the back on this one.

2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

We need to determine how important it really is to us before we allow the enemy to take any more ground. How much do we really grieve and bleed over what is happening around us? How bad do we really want our land to be healed. What price are we willing to pay?

I thought this made sense. What do your think?


_________________
KLC

 2007/1/8 0:23Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
When you say there will be no nuclear attacks, Are you prophecying?



No.

Theoreticaly, of course it could happen. Just like in theory Canada could invade the US this year.

But, common sense renders it pretty unlikley.

When people come out with these dire warnings they will always stir a few people up. Later on they will rationalize them by saying that "God's timing is different", "it happened spiritualy" or "i usualy get it right but was wrong this time". This is nonsense- what is the value of such predictions if they can be so easily dismissed.

On a related thread Ravehill is quoted as saing that America would be destroyed in a couple of years( this was in the 80s I think) What is the point of a statement like that? It was wrong plain and simple.


I will bump this thread in Jan '08 just to remind us all that no nuclear attacks (or other similar thing causing the death of millions) happened and Robertson's predictions were rubbish. Of course there could be natural disastors, of course there could be a terrorist organisation that manages to kill hundreds or even thousands of people. But they wont do as a get out clause for Robertson.



 2007/1/8 6:35Profile









 Re:

Last year Robertson "prophesied" that a tsunami would hit the west coast devastating most of California. Later in the year he "revised" his "prophecy" and said that it would only be a [b]2 foot[/b] tsunami....

...uh, Pat... that's called a "wave". Just ask the Beach Boys.

A nuclear bomb on the US could happen, just like it could have happened 30 years ago. But Pat Robertson has proven to be a false prophet. I'll probably get hammered for making such a judgement call, but to put it simply if someone makes a prophecy and it turns out to be false, that makes them a false prophet.

Pat has come out with some absurd things in the past few years. Personally I think he should consider retirement.

Krispy

 2007/1/8 8:09









 Re:

By the way, Robertson also "prophecied" that the 2006 hurricane season would be even worse than the 2005 season (Katrina). Funny thing happened... the [b]exact[/b] opposite! It was the calmest in 30 years. There was not one hurricane this year that hit the US. Not one. (There were 2 tropical storms, but they caused no damage)

It was almost as tho God went out of His way to proove Robertson wrong. If this is the case, I hope Robertson prophecies all sorts of doom and gloom! lol

Krispy

 2007/1/8 9:25





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