| Poster | Thread | hmmhmm
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Joined: 2006/1/31
Posts: 4994
Sweden
| | Judge not | | i read thru the thread "Judge not, least ye be judged" and i have a question that come to my mind, Nothing that is in that thread perticular its just something that recently happend in my life, I sometimes have a house prayer meeting in my house on fridays, and this time i spoke about what is going on in the church and i wanted us to pray for "my" church and our pastors. The church im attending is a penecostal church at name but im sad to say it is a wordly seeker friendly love gospel church, Its just people call my legalist and "overly spiritual" , some things i was told by the elders i understand, im new in the faith but when i say things like i dont belive even 10% in my church really is saved, i get that throwned at me... JUDGE NOT!! or YOU WILL BE JUDGED, and i was very burdend and depressed and very broken when they all where against me, not at the thing i wanted to pray about ...but when i start speaking about sertain parts of scripture, one example from
1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.
many many in my church and many of my friends are what some call "backsliders" , but i im suprised some of the godly men there have been saved for 50 years! and i submit to their autho´rity, but i was hurt. Ive only been saved for lite over one year and i really need to mature in christ.But they say thay are all saved and i cant go around saying people arent saved... becuse such negative talk wnt bring anyone into the kingdom, and also i shouldent mention hell and scare belivers of hell, maybe to the unsaved but not to the saved, i can undrstand what they where saying, that if we could scare them to be saved we already would have,
is it wrong to say people are not saved? i was told if god calls me to a teacher/preacher i can say what god tells me to teach/preach until then i should just say such things if someone ask my opinion, i can understand if im going to teach someone i must know scripture and know how to lead someone thru scripture, but i just want some opinions from other and brothers and sisters.
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CHRISTIAN
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|  2006/12/20 13:17 | Profile | tjservant
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Posts: 1658
Indiana USA
| | | 2006/12/20 13:33 | Profile | beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA
| | Re: Judge not | | Quote:
is it wrong to say people are not saved?
Yes.
Only Jesus knows who is truly saved and who is not. Even if you are right about what you say, it is not your place (or mine) to say who is saved. That is the work of Christ.
John 21:22 (NIV)
Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me."
As far as backsliding goes, this is a different matter. We are not to judge a person as to whether or not they are saved. However, if a person is blatantly sinning, we should follow the counsel of Paul.
1 Corinthians 5:9-13 (NIV)
"9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-- 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat. 12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. 'Expel the wicked man from among you.'"
Clearly, there is a difference here. To judge a person's salvation is to condemn them. Only Christ has the authority to judge a person's faith. However, if a brother or sister is sinning, we can judge their fruit. We can say, "My brother, you are sinning."
Christ gave proper procedures for addressing sin in the Church.
Matthew 18:15-17 (NIV)
15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Luke 17:3 (NIV)
So watch yourselves. "If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.
Our goal in addressing sin is not to prove ourselves or to have power over another. It is to lovingly bring a person back to Christ. Only a person walking in humility is able to do such a thing. First, we need to check ourselves and see if we have a log in our own eye. Once we have been humbled, then we can help another to see.
The key word in the above passage is "repents." This is very important. Christ said we should continually forgive a person if they sin so long as they repent. If they do not repent, we should rebuke them. If a person is struggling with sin, then we should help them to find victory.
For example, let's say a brother you know is committing fornication on a regular basis and you confront him with this sin. The brother says to you, "I know it's wrong, I just can't stop." Obviously, the brother is struggling with sin. You should then encourage him to seek help. However, if you come to this brother and he says, "Who are you to judge me?" Obviously, this brother does not see his sin. He is not seeking to turn from his sin. In this case, you should gather together other brothers to confront him as Jesus said and show him his sin. If this brother still continues to deny his sin, then this should be followed by rebuke as Paul said. We should not even eat with this brother.
Of course, any situation like this that arises should be preluded with immense prayer.
There is a difference between judging the fruit of a person, and judging a person. We are not to judge a person's salvation. We just don't know. A person could be committing all sorts of sins and be saved. Christ will allow this to happen in order to discipline. When a person is left to their sins, they suffer the consequences of sin. As such, they may come back to Christ years later.
We cannot be the judge of who is saved or not. We can, however, clearly see the fruit of a person in the Church. If a person says, "I am a Christian" and then says, "it is okay to sin." This person must be rebuked. Do not even eat with such a person. It is not okay to sin. However, if a person says, "I am not a Christian" and says, "it is okay to sin" we must heed Pauls words. It is not our place to judge the fruit of a person outside the Church.
I hope this helps,
May Christ bring you clarity on this,
In love,
Blake
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Blake Kidney
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| | 2006/12/20 14:22 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Nicodemas was told he was not saved- the love of Christ warned him!
We should do likewise and warn our fellow man as He preached more about Hell than Heaven |
| | 2006/12/21 1:16 | | Yeshuasboy
Member
Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada
| | Re: Judge not | | Quote:
hmmhmm wrote:
i can understand if im going to teach someone i must know scripture and know how to lead someone thru scripture, but i just want some opinions from other and brothers and sisters.
Dear brother,
A helpful paper I have found on the subject of "judging" is [url=http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue94.htm]here[/url] and another by James Jacob Prasch titled [url=http://www.moriel.org/articles/sermons/judge_not.htm]Judge Not[/url].
I hope those two articles will be of a blessing to you at this time...
I myself have not fully analyzed these articles, but did brief them quickly in the past. I think they will help; for they give, I believe, clear insight into this subject of not judging to judging righteously, etc.
richie
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Richie
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| | 2006/12/21 5:24 | Profile | geddingsm
Member
Joined: 2003/11/3
Posts: 61
south carolina
| | Re: | | I would suggest you listen to two very powerful sermons on here by Ray Comfort.
True and False Conversion
Hell' Best Kept Secret
I was once in situation similar to yours and these sermons really opened my eyes.
In Him,
geddingsm
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marvin geddings
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| | 2006/12/21 6:07 | Profile | DoulosQuinn
Member
Joined: 2006/7/6
Posts: 131
| | GOOD sermons | | by Ray Comfort.
True and False Conversion
Hell' Best Kept Secret
It will open eyes,
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| | 2006/12/26 6:16 | Profile | hisremnant
Member
Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana
| | Re: GOOD sermons | | Praise Jesus!!! Lion of Judah!!!!!
Do not judge! Is the first line of defense for all those who are seen bearing bad fruit (sin).
those who observe this fact publicly (bad fruit) will often be castigated with the "do not judge" mantra. Particularly if the one bearing bad fruit is a pastor or other church leader (suffer not to harm the Lords annointed?)
So what does scripture say about this judging?
Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
It says to judge righteously. It does not say do not judge.
How do we judge righteously?
Mt 7:5 "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Dont be guilty of what you accuse others (hypocrite). Get the plank out of my eye. (Be righteous)
Then i may address the speck in anothers eye.
How do we deal with this bearer of bad fruit?
1co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner-not even to eat with such a person.
1co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1co 5:13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
Yet with these judgments we must not stand in the place of God. If we do we will be dealt with in the same manner.
Lu 6:36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
We must be merciful but honest and righteous in our judgments. Praying for restoration of the one who bears bad fruit. Do not condemn. That is the place of Christ.
Finally i must say we live in a time (end of days?) when it is more important than ever to know what and why we believe. To follow only true shepherds. We must respond only to the voice of the true Shepherd Jesus.
The Lord warns us quite clearly in Matthew 24 that the most dangerous thing for His disciples in these last days IS DECEPTION AND BEING DECEIVED. The world is full of those pointing to a false Jesus and preaching a deceptive and worldly (false) gospel. Times are so perilous that even the very elect might be deceived.
We can not abide in Christ and Him in us nor can we stand firm to the end LEST WE LEARN AND USE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT.
Hisservant rich
Matthew 4:17 |
| | 2006/12/26 13:55 | Profile | hisremnant
Member
Joined: 2006/2/2
Posts: 55
North Central Indiana
| | Re: GOOD sermons | | Praise Jesus!!! Lion of Judah!!!!!
Do not judge! Is the first line of defense for all those who are seen bearing bad fruit (sin).
those who observe this fact publicly (bad fruit) will often be castigated with the "do not judge" mantra. Particularly if the one bearing bad fruit is a pastor or other church leader (suffer not to harm the Lords annointed?)
So what does scripture say about this judging?
Joh 7:24 "Do not judge according to appearance, but judge with righteous judgment."
It says to judge righteously. It does not say do not judge.
How do we judge righteously?
Mt 7:5 "Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
Dont be guilty of what you accuse others (hypocrite). Get the plank out of my eye. (Be righteous)
Then i may address the speck in anothers eye.
How do we deal with this bearer of bad fruit?
1co 5:11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner-not even to eat with such a person.
1co 5:12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside?
1co 5:13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore "put away from yourselves the evil person."
Yet with these judgments we must not stand in the place of God. If we do we will be dealt with in the same manner.
Lu 6:36 "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful.
Lu 6:37 "Judge not, and you shall not be judged. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
We must be merciful but honest and righteous in our judgments. Praying for restoration of the one who bears bad fruit. Do not condemn that is the place of Christ.
Finally i must say we live in a time (end of days?) when it is more important than ever to know what and why we believe. To follow only true shepherds. We must respond only to the voice of the true Shepherd Jesus.
The Lord warns us quite clearly in Matthew 24 that the most dangerous thing for His disciples in these last days IS DECEPTION AND BEING DECEIVED. The world is full of those pointing to a false Jesus and preaching a deceptive and worldly (false) gospel. Times are so perilous that even the very elect might be deceived.
We can not abide in Christ and Him in us nor can we stand firm to the end LEST WE LEARN AND USE RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT.
Hisservant rich
Matthew 4:17 |
| | 2006/12/26 13:55 | Profile | mamaluk
Member
Joined: 2006/6/12
Posts: 524
| | Re: Matthew 7 | | Matthew 7
[color=0000CC][b]1 Judge not,lest ye be judged. [/b]................
...... [b]15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. [/b]
16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
[b] 20Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. [/b][/color]
I suppose many preachers use Matt 7:1 to intimidate congregation into not judging them...but hardly ever mention the following verses 15 - 19 in the same chapter. Where the Lord told us to judge so that we could beware of falsehood .
Context,yeah, try to always consider context, always. Matt 7:1, I believe,is primarily directed against the Pharisees in our Lord's time.
A time to discern, a time to condemn, and indeed, even a time to judge..according to the Holy Word with prayers, for His righteousness's sake, to His glory.
Hope this helps, dear Christian :)
In His love,
mamaluk |
| | 2006/12/27 23:16 | Profile |
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