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 Re:

Hi Paul,

I would agree that God is not just one being that operates in 3 different modes. I also though believe that the current understanding of the Trinity is [i]probably[/i] not correct. Just as you advise Blake not to wrestle one scripture and ignore all the others...this would be good advise to those who hold on to the Trinity Doctrine as well. Most people who defend and hold to the doctrine of the Trinity do so by holding on to some passages while neglecting others. They do this and justify it by calling God a mystery. Then this unexplainable mystery becomes a tenant of the Faith one must believe or else they are a heretic. And then we wonder why Muslims and people from other faiths don't understand this doctrine we cannot explain that they must believe?

The bible says the God is One..but what does that mean? The bible says me and my wife are one flesh but does that mean we are one being? The bible says brothers in Christ are one but does that mean we are one being as well?

Jesus prays to the Father in John 17 and prays that we may be one as He and the Father are One. I know that Jesus is not praying that believers will become one being.

The implications of Christ not being separate from the Father are huge. If God is one being as the Trinity Doctrine states, without one.. God is not God, then God could not forsake His Son on the cross and Christ could not have had the possibility of sinning while on earth. If Christ could not have sinned then how can he be a High Priest able to sympathize with our weakness tempted in every way as we are? It would also mean that God poured His wrath out on Himself.

Quote:
Only the Father knows the day and hour (not the Son);



How are the Father and the Son co-equal in every way if the "all knowing Son (God)" does not know all things? Being Almighty God is being All-Knowing right? Unless Jesus is just speaking about His time on earth and His limitations on earth. (But could He really be limited if God is one being - inseparable?)

This diagram is used to describe the Trinity...but if the scriptures are true (and they are)..then it cannot be correct. Or at least I don't see how it could be.

[url=http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/8181/shieldtrinityenglishae8.gif]Trinity Diagram[/url]

 2006/12/7 1:24









 Re:

Quote:
I wrote this by guidance of the Holy Spirit in accord with God's Will. It took me nearly 8 hours Wednesday to complete.



Fair enough Blake... You did a great job writing those pieces.

I disagree with your arguments and your beliefs, but it was well written.

Krispy

 2006/12/7 7:59
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
I prayed to the Father every night. It was not until I prayed to Jesus that my prayers were answered and I was saved.

They are both God. Still, Christ told us to pray to our Father. Praying to Jesus isn't better than praying to the Father- it's the same- they're both God.





Some cool verses

Matthew 11:10
For this is he(John the baptist) of whom it is written: ‘ Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,Who will prepare Your way before You.’

Malachi 3
1 “Behold, I send My messenger,
And he will prepare the way before Me.
And the Lord, whom you seek,
Will suddenly come to His temple,
Even the Messenger of the covenant,
In whom you delight.
Behold, He is coming,”
Says the LORD of hosts.




Heb 1
8 But to the Son He says:


“ Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”



10 And:



“ You, LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
11 They will perish, but You remain;
And they will all grow old like a garment;
12 Like a cloak You will fold them up,
And they will be changed.
But You are the same,
And Your years will not fail.”


Isaiah 60:19
[ God the Glory of His People ] “ The sun shall no longer be your light by day, Nor for brightness shall the moon give light to you; But the LORD will be to you an everlasting light, And your God your glory.

Rev 21
22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light.

Jer 23
6 In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell safely;
Now this is His name by which He will be called:

THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/7 10:10Profile









 Re:

Hi Ron,

I read through some of the threads you posted last night. I read just about all of the 38 pages of the "Godhead" thread. It was very interesting with a lot of information. However, I didn't see it address or answer any of the questions I posted. Was there a particular thread you were refering to where those topics were already discussed?

~sscott

 2006/12/8 0:35
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Did you know that the first biblical reference to 'worship' is Trinitarian?

[color=0000ff]“Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,”
(Gen 18:1-2 NKJV)[/color]

The phrase 'bowed himself' is the verb translated 'worship' in Gen 22:5 which is the first time our English bible uses the word. However the first time the Hebrew word is used is here in Gen 18.

It is a fascinating and mysterious passage. The English word 'LORD' in upper case signifies that the actual word is the proper personal name of God as revealed to the people of Israel; Jehovah.

"Jehovah appeared" in the form of three men. One God in three persons. The Bible gives no explanation but simply records with the infallible accuracy of the Holy Spirit that it was Jehovah himself who appeared simultaneously in the form of three individuals.

My reaction is the same as Abraham's! :-)


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Ron Bailey

 2006/12/8 10:11Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Brother PaulWest,

Quote:
Great is the mystery.



The Trinity is not a mystery, it is false. Anything that divides God into three parts is false. By saying God is a union of three persons, then you are saying that God is a nation of people. You are saying that God is three people united as one.

A "person" is an "individual" which is the smallest component by which something may be divided. By saying God is three persons in one, you are saying that God can be divided into three separate entities.

If this is true, then what are we to say of these scriptures:

Colossians 2:9
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,

Colossians 1:15
"He is the image of the invisible God"

Hebrews 1:3
"the exact representation of His nature"

John 14:9
"He who has seen Me has seen the Father;"

Philippians 2:6
"although He existed in the form of God"

As a married man, who has been united as one with another person, I would never say such things of my wife. I would never say, "If you have seen me, you have seen my wife." This speaks of something greater. Christ is the image of God. He is the face of God. No one has seen the Father, or can see the Father, except by looking upon Christ. They are not two separate people, they are one person. Christ is the visible expression of the Father who is greater than all things.

Of course, this is where many reply, "That is the great mystery of the Trinity." Such talk is mere foolishness. There is no mystery here. The Trinity was a best fit doctrine based upon a reading of the bible. It has no biblical basis whatsoever.

No where in the bible does it say God is three persons in one. No where is the word trinity used to describe God. Even the word "godhead" used in the King James bible is the greek word "Theios" which means "divinity." The Church adopted and instituted this doctrine, then imposing it upon the KJ bible.

One of the greatest threats the doctrine of the trinity imposes is this division between Father and Son. Christ never stressed His separation from the Father. Rather, He stressed continually their union.

I have encountered so many people who become confused and lead astray from God because of this doctrine. There are people who refuse to even listen to Christians because of the trinity. In their heart, they know God is one. But when they hear of the trinity where it states God is three persons, they immediately assume Christianity is false.

I have encountered Christians who become confused and fall away from Christ because they learn about the Trinity and begin to think all Christians are living in sin because they are worshiping Christ instead of the Father. I then have to take them back through a study of the book of John so they once again can see that it is Christ in whom we worship, pray, and give all our thanks. He is our Lord, there is no other.

This doctrine of the trinity that so many Christians are holding onto is not only false, but destructive. I pray that the Church will take step of faith out of the comfortable little nest created by years of academia, and once again embrace Christ in the Spirit offering her entire mind, body and soul to her Lord for His good pleasure.

If the Church is ever going to see revival, it will first have to come from rejecting everything we know, and coming face down once again to the cross of Christ. We have to surrender everything to Him, giving up everything we know, so that Christ can fill us with truth.

Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
Psalms 19:12(KJ)

I pray that the Lord raises up a new Church that worships Him in Spirit and truth. May this Church serve Him as He desires, and not by any invention of man.

In the name of Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/12/8 10:44Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
The Trinity is not a mystery, it is false. Anything that divides God into three parts is false. By saying God is a union of three persons, then you are saying that God is a nation of people. You are saying that God is three people united as one.

A "person" is an "individual" which is the smallest component by which something may be divided. By saying God is three persons in one, you are saying that God can be divided into three separate entities.


You are inventing your own world here and your own definitions. It is your misapplication of trinitarian statements which divides God into three persons.

No trinitarian 'divides' God into three persons. Trinitarians 'unite' three persons in One God.

Quote:
If the Church is ever going to see revival, it will first have to come from rejecting everything we know, and coming face down once again to the cross of Christ. We have to surrender everything to Him, giving up everything we know, so that Christ can fill us with truth.


This statement just illustrates your prejudice. There never was a 'revival' that was not trinitarian.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/12/8 11:03Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
“Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day. So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,”
(Gen 18:1-2 NKJV)



At first reading of this, we might think this is trinitarian. However, if we read further...

(Gen 18:22-33 NKJV)
22 Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, but Abraham still stood before the Lord.

23 And Abraham came near and said, "Would You also destroy the righteous with the wicked? 24 Suppose there were fifty righteous within the city; would You also destroy the place and not spare it for the fifty righteous that were in it? 25 Far be it from You to do such a thing as this, to slay the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked; far be it from You! Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" 26 So the Lord said, "If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes." 27 Then Abraham answered and said, "Indeed now, I who am but dust and ashes have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: 28 Suppose there were five less than the fifty righteous; would You destroy all of the city for lack of five?" So He said, "If I find there forty-five, I will not destroy it." 29 And he spoke to Him yet again and said, "Suppose there should be forty found there?" So He said, "I will not do it for the sake of forty." 30 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Suppose thirty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not do it if I find thirty there." 31 And he said, "Indeed now, I have taken it upon myself to speak to the Lord: Suppose twenty should be found there?" So He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of twenty." 32 Then he said, "Let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak but once more: Suppose ten should be found there?" And He said, "I will not destroy it for the sake of ten." 33 So the Lord went His way as soon as He had finished speaking with Abraham; and Abraham returned to his place.


In this passage, the men leave and Abraham is left alone with the Lord. Though there were three men, only one was the Lord in whom Abraham pleads for mercy.

---edit
Genesis 19:1 says
"Now the two angels came to Sodom in the evening..."

Of the three, two were angels that left for Sodom.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2006/12/8 11:25Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
You are inventing your own world here and your own definitions.



I can assure you I am not. This is all done in the name of my Lord, Jesus Christ. I am instrument for His use.

Please, I do not wish to argue. I have made my submission. I ask of nothing of you. I plead with Christ to make His case. If any of this has indeed come from me, then I pray it will be burned up in ashes and I be disciplined with a heavy rod. But if it has been from Christ, then I pray His will be done.

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2006/12/8 11:30Profile
searchin
Member



Joined: 2006/10/18
Posts: 125
u.s.a. /

 Re: Trinity Questions

many have the same questions that you do....
one thought...the main difference in christianity from other relegions of the world is the fact that we worship one God.
you see how Catholicism has incorperated the heathen way of worship by giving there worshipers objects of affection such as saints...popes...mary etc..etc...
when witnessibng to muslims, and other relions you must keep in mind we do have only one....the one true God. and the only way to that one true God is Jesus!
the carnal mind can-not recieve the things of God. this statement is no truer then with the study of the trinity (or the Diety of Christ) to try to understand (or explain) it completley would be impossible.
keep prayin' and studying God will show you.

 2006/12/8 12:24Profile





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