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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The "Secret Rapture" Deception

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lovegrace
Member



Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

I agree with Greg. I'm still praying on a more solid refutement in the Word to take a stand against 'secret rapture/pre-trib'.

Now. I have two comments that I know from the word of God.

Revelation 3:10 - Gracealone, I know this scripture is used a lot for the pre-tribers but let me show you the greek.

[url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/c.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&version=KJV#10]Rev. 3:10 in greek[/url]

Now, lets look at the word [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?book=Rev&chapter=3&verse=10&strongs=5083&page=]keep[/url] in the greek because that's what the pre-tribers use to say 'we will be removed'.

Now, this greek word is in the KJV 75 times. Here are a few examples of 'keep'.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep[/b] the commandments.

Mat 23:3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, [that] [b]observe[/b] and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

John 2:10 And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: [but] thou hast [b]kept[/b] the good wine until now.

Jhn 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man [b]keep[/b] my saying , he shall never see death.

This is the defination of this word 'keep'.

Def. - to attend to carefully, [b]take care of[/b]
a) to guard
b) metaph. to keep, one in the state in which he is
c) to observe
d) to reserve: to [b]undergo[/b] something

Let's just take Matthew 19:17 - And he(Jesus) said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, [b]keep[/b] the commandments.

Was Jesus saying. "If thou wilt enter into life, remove the commandments."? Uh...no. Therefore, this scripture (Rev. 3:10) is taken completly out of context and doesn't aid to the discussion of pre-triber but instead aids to Christ PROTECTING His church in the trib.

We will be in the tribulation but this is what Jesus says.

John 16:33
33"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."

Then, shall we be removed, look at Christ's prayer.

John 17:15
15"I do [b]not[/b] ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.

Guess what that 'keep' word. Ha, it's the SAME greek word in Rev. 3:10.

May God give revelation to the saints that are seeking the Truth.

 2006/12/2 8:55Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
God's Holy Word says we are born again and in Christ and Christ is in us. Christ will not go through the tribulation in the believer. He already did that for us.



Philip,

Can I ask you a question about the above statement? You say that you don't believe Jesus will go through the trib..........is it then your belief then that NO ONE will come to salvation through the tribulation?

See, for me, this is one of the biggest issues which completely discounts the idea of pre-trib rapture, besides the multitudes of scriptures which clearly discount for me.

NOONE can be saved without being born again. When someone is born again, Christ dwells within them. It seems to me that the pre-trib rapture doctrine is seriously flawed in understanding the nature of salvation and that when Paul spoke I Thess. 5:9-10 it pertains to ALL believers of ALL time, not just those believers who have been born prior to the very last days.

Some have been born.........some are still in the "womb".......but all that have been given to Jesus by the Father WILL come to Him (Jn 6) and He will raise them up ON THE LAST DAY. All the Father has given Jesus are NOT appointed to WRATH (I Thess. 5:9-10).


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Cindy

 2006/12/2 10:54Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

I wanted to post one more scripture for consideration:

II Thess. 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Does it appear in this passage that we will meet our Lord BEFORE the judgment on wicked man or does it appear that Paul is teaching the saints to be encouraged in their suffering by the wicked.........the Lord IS coming with His holy angels----in flaming fire to exact vengeance on those who trouble the saints and disobey the Lord. It also speaks of THIS being the time when Jesus will be glorified in His saints.


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Cindy

 2006/12/2 11:01Profile
crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: "The Secret Rapture" Deception

[i]Moderator note: Copied the following from a posting by the same name and pasted it here, the other duplicate post will be removed. Please, when responding to an ongoing discussion, use the "Reply" button rather than starting a new post by the same name. Thanks [/i]

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Poster Thread
sscr01
Not too shy to talk



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 26


I suggest, that, He comes, raptures the church, takes us up with Him, after 1,000 years, we return in the New Jerusalem. The wicked are revived, and attack the city. They are defeated.

Then...the judgement.


2006/12/2 8:24


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Mike Balog

 2006/12/2 13:46Profile
ingleb
Member



Joined: 2006/12/4
Posts: 8


 Re:

When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place......For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

Christians do go thru trials and tribulation and have been since the first century, but what Jesus called the, "great tribulation" is a seven year period spelled out in Daniel ch.9.
Seventy weeks (or seventy seven year periods) 490 years, are issued to Daniel's people(Jews), and Daniel's holy city(Jerusalem) v24-27.
This 490 year period began with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, which took place on March 14th, 445BC(Nehemiah 2:4-8).
Daniel states that after 483 years Messiah will present himself as King. Jesus fulfilled this when he rode a donkey into Jerusalem exactly 483 years later to the day, on April 6th, 32AD.
But then Daniel states that this time period will be stopped because the Messiah will be killed(but not for himself)v26.
At this time God stops dealing with the Jews and starts dealing with, "The Church". This is the time frame we are in today, The Church Age. It has lasted for almost 2000 years(since Acts chapter 2). 69 weeks (or 483 years) is over, but there is one week(or 7 years) left. The 70th week is a 7 year period that Jesus called," the great tribulation". It is a period of time when God starts dealing with the Jews again. The church was not on this earth during the first 69 weeks and the church will not be on this earth during the 70th week. The church must be removed before the 7 years of tribulation can begin. Jesus will come back for his bride, there will be people saved during the tribulation, but they will not be part of the church(or the bride of Christ), they will be tribulation saints.

 2006/12/4 22:28Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re: The "Secret Rapture" Deception

The starting point for the 2300-day and 490-year prophecies in Daniel, began with the Persian King Artaxerxes authorizing God's people (who were captive in Medo-Persia) to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the city. The decree in Ezra 7 was implemented in the Autumn. Artaxerxes began his reign in 464 B.C. The angel said that 69 prophetic weeks, or 483 literal years (69 x 7 = 483) added to 457 B.C. would reach Messiah (Jesus) in Daniel 7:25. 483 years from the fall of 457 B.C., reaches the fall of A.D. 27.

The word "Messiah" means "anointed." (John 1:41, margin). Jesus was anointed with the Holy Ghost (Acts 10:38) at his baptism (Luke 3:21,22). His anointing took place in the 15th year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar (Luke 3:1), which was A.D. 27. Jesus began to preach that the time was fulfilled (the 483 years which were to reach to the Messiah). He confirmed the prophecy (Mark 1:14, 15; Galatians 4:4). So, Jesus, actually, began His ministry by relating the 2300-day prophecy.

Jesus was "cut-off" or crucified "in the midst of the week," which is 3 1/2 years after His anointing. In verse 26 the Gospel is revealed: "After threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut-off, but not for Himself." For us!

This passage is referring to the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Jesus was cut-off, then, the Gospel continued to go to the Jews, for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.

 2006/12/4 23:23Profile
roaringlamb
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
This passage is referring to the Messiah, not the Antichrist. Jesus was cut-off, then, the Gospel continued to go to the Jews, for 3 1/2 years, until, the stoning of Stephen.



Have to agree with ya here. History is hard to refute, and this is historically proven.
As of late I have been looking into the "historical" view of prophecy and of the views that are around this one seems to make the most sense.


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patrick heaviside

 2006/12/4 23:32Profile
ingleb
Member



Joined: 2006/12/4
Posts: 8


 Re:

There were three authorizations in Ezra to return to Jerusalem, but they were all decrees to rebuild the Temple only. Daniel 9:25 is very clear that the 70 weeks start with the decree to rebuild Jerusalem, it says the street shall be built and the wall. The only decree to rebuild the walls and the city was issued by Artaxerxes in Nehemiah 2, on March 14th, 445BC.
Daniel 9:25 also says that,"From the going forth of the commandment to restore and build Jerusalem unto Messiah the King...". It does not say to reach Messiah. The word for "King" is Nagid it always means the "King of the Jews". There is only one day in history when Jesus allowed himself to be worshipped as the King. The day he presented himself to Jerusalem, riding in through the east gate on a donkey, exactly 173,880 days (483 years) after the decree given in Nehemiah 2.
Tiberius Caesar took office in 15 AD, his 15th year in office would have been 29 AD.
v26 says that Jesus was cut off, after threescore and two weeks(62 weeks), that comes after the first seven V25, which is a total of 69 weeks. It doesn't say Jesus was cut off " in the midst of the week".
The 70th week has not taken place yet.
v24- Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,(to do what?)
1. to finish the transgression.
We still have transgression.
2. to make an end of sins.
We still have a lot of sin.
3. to make reconciliation for iniquity.
I'll give you this one because Jesus accomplished this on the cross.
4. to bring in everlasting righteousness.
Everlasting righteousness has not been brought in that I can see.
5. to seal up the vision and prophesy, and to annoint the most holy place.
The most holy place will only be annointed when Jesus takes his rightful place on his throne in Jerusalem. Right now he is sitting on his father's right hand.
The last 7 year period has not taken place yet or all these things would be a reality. The book of Revelation details these 7 years from Chapters 6- 19. At the end of chapter 19 it becomes obvious that these details are a reality and the world is much different from the way it is today.

I see where you are coming from on the time line, I just think it's a little off. None of these details really effect the rapture though, either way Jesus is still coming back for the church. We still have to be with him in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb, and then return to earth with him. If the rapture is Post-trib, that makes the marriage supper a sack lunch.

 2006/12/5 0:39Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

"unto Messiah," means "unto Messiah."

The word in Daniel in the Hebrew, is "Messiah," - "Mashiyah; anointed; spec. the Messiah, not, Antichrist.

As the Encyclopedias begin the reign of Tiberius in A.D. 14, some scholars question the fixed date, as the Emperors' reigns overlapped one another.

457 B.C - Decree
AD 27 - Baptism
AD 31 - Crucifixion ("cut-off")
AD 34 - Stephen stoned

It says in Daniel 9, that, "Messiah" would be "cut-off" that is a Hebrew expression for death. After Jesus'31/2 year ministry ended, He confirmed the covenant, by sending His disciples to the Jewish nation (Matthew 10:5,6) because the chosen people, still, had 31/2 years remaining of their 490 year opportunity.

Also, it is not consistent in prophecy, to separate the last week and thrust it down into the end of time. Where is the precedent?

Jesus returns, to collect us, we go to Heaven for 1,000 years, and return in the New Jerusalem - then, He will reign upon the earth in His Kingdom.
We are with Him 1,000 years - that, is no "sack lunch."

By the way, the Apostle Paul makes it plain - we are, now, His temple upon the earth. 2 Cor 6:16. That is why the Reformers. pointed to the Papacy as, the "Son of Perdition," that, sits in God's temple (His church) as if he were God.

Jesus rules and reigns in His temple - in us!

 2006/12/5 7:29Profile
lastblast
Member



Joined: 2004/10/16
Posts: 528
Michigan

 Re:

Quote:
We still have to be with him in heaven for the marriage supper of the lamb, and then return to earth with him. If the rapture is Post-trib, that makes the marriage supper a sack lunch.



ingleb,

Do you believe that there will be noone born again after a rapture?

Scripture clearly teaches that ALL who are born again are "in Christ"........being "in Christ" makes one part of His Body/The Church (Eph. 1:22-23). How is it that you believe the entire church is in heaven during the days preceeding His 2nd Glorious return?


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Cindy

 2006/12/5 10:17Profile





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