| Poster | Thread | lovegrace
Member
Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313
| | Re: I watched the video | | Some of the video clips were decepetive (From the director). Like the director cutted the clip before it would've been put in context, then not applical for the video.
Yes the video is biased, but that's nothing to not exspect. Take everything with a grain of salt. |
|  2006/11/24 9:50 | Profile | lovegrace
Member
Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313
| | Re: | | Man, that last part. UGH! Oh God, I know Your heart breaks, they have left and denied their first love.
Oh, I pray that the Love of Money be removed not only from the mainline 'evangelists' but the rest of the church as well. |
| | 2006/11/24 10:19 | Profile | GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida
| | Re: | | First off, all true Christians (charismatic or not) have been baptized into the spirit PERIOD.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
If you believe otherwise then YOU MUST account for this CLEAR verse.
_________________
Kristy
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| | 2006/11/24 12:26 | Profile | PaulWest
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Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
This verse, I believe, refers to conversion. We find the same in Gal. 3:27 and Romans 8:16. But what is the "Baptism" which Paul speaks of to the believers in Ephesus in Acts 19? "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?"
If we follow your understanding of I Cor. 12:13 (which Paul wrote!) Why would Paul even need to ask this question to men who were already believers in Christ? True, we are all baptized into Christ by one baptism at conversion, I wonder, is there a separate filling to "tarry" after in the upper room of our hunger for God?
Well, I happen to belive there is (for I have experienced it by the grace of God), and men like DL Moody and Finney also discovered it, and wrote of it. Do some research on DL Moody in particular; when he was baptised in the Holy Spirit, his ministry and prayers took on an entirely new dimension. RA Torrey tells about it. Finney himself had a very dramatic Holy Spirit baptism, which he described vividly. I'll see if I can find it and post it here.
I understand, of course, that you are driven by Calvinistic unfluences and have been taught from the pulpit that there is no such baptism to seek - and that you may even consider Finney a heretic, but certainly you cannot discount his revival that even your staunch Calvinistic precursors such as Asahel Nettleton and Beecher had to admit that God moved extraordinarily through Charles Finney - especially during the famous 1830-31 revival in Rochester, NY. Now, why would Finney and Moody lie of such a baptism if everyone simply gets baptized and filled by the Holy Spirit at conversion? Why would Ravenhill and Wilkerson and Keith Green and Moody and Finney and Cymbala and others lie about a Spirit Baptism that is separate from the conversion experience?
Brother Paul
(edit) Here are some short, somewhat abridged testionies of famous men of God who have experienced the Spirit's Baptism after conversion.
D. L. Moody
D.L. Moody was a successful minister but by his own admission later, he lacked the power in his ministry. One day two women came up to him after a service. They said,
"We have been praying for you."
"Why don't you pray for the people?" he asked.
"Because you need the power of the Spirit," they said.
"I need the power! Why," said Mr. Moody, in relating the incident years after, "I thought I had power. I had the largest congregations in Chicago, and there were many conversions.”
Moody also said that in a sense, he was satisfied. He was in a comfort zone. But these two praying women rocked the boat. They told him that they were praying for an anointing by the Holy Spirit for D.L. to have a special service to God. He could not get this off his mind and he said, “There came a great hunger in my soul. I did not know what it was and I began to cry out to God as never before. I felt I did not want to live if I could not have this power for service”.
After the great fire of Chicago, DL was working to raise money to rebuild a tabernacle. He said his heart was not into it because he kept crying out to God to fill him. He withdrew and prayed during a visit to New York to raise money and he cried that God would fill him with His Spirit. DL describes it this way:
“Well, one day, in the city of New York -- oh, what a day! -- I cannot describe it, I seldom refer to it; it is almost too sacred an experience to name. Paul had an experience of which he never spoke for fourteen years. I can only say that God revealed Himself to me, and I had such an experience of His love that I had to ask Him to stay His hand. I went to preaching again. The sermons were not different; I did not present any new truths, and yet hundreds were converted. I would not now be placed back where I was before that blessed experience if you should give me all the world -- it would be as the small dust of the balance.”
R. A. Torrey
R. A. Torrey gives his testimony:
The address of this afternoon, and the addresses of the days immediately to follow, are the outcome of an experience, and that experience was the outcome of a study of the Word of God. After I had been a Christian for some years, and after I had been in the ministry for some years, my attention was strongly attracted to certain phrases found in the Gospels and in the Acts of the Apostles, and in the Epistles, such as "baptized with the Holy Spirit," "filled with the Spirit," "the Holy Spirit fell upon them," "the gift of the Holy Spirit," "endued with power from on high," and other closely allied phrases. As I studied these various phrases in their context, it became clear to me that they all stood for essentially the same experience; and it also became clear to me that God has provided for each child of His in this present dispensation that they should be thus "baptized with the Spirit," or, "filled with the Spirit."
As I studied the subject still further, I became convinced that they described an experience which I did not myself possess, and I went to work to secure for myself the experience thus described. I sought earnestly that I might "be baptized with the Holy Spirit." I went at it very ignorantly. I have often wondered if anyone ever went at it any more ignorantly than I did. But while I was ignorant, I was thoroughly sincere and in earnest, and God met me, as He always meets the sincere and earnest soul, no matter how ignorant he may be; and God gave me what I sought, I was "baptized with the Holy Spirit." And the result was a transformed Christian life and a transformed ministry.
(I have added the bold for emphasis).
Charles G. Finney
I was powerfully converted on the morning of the month of October, 1822. In the evening of the same day I received overwhelming baptisms of the Holy Ghost, that went through me, as it seemed to me, body and soul. I immediately found myself endued with such power from on high that a few words dropped here and there to individuals were the means of their immediate conversion. My words seemed to fasten like barbed arrows in the souls of men. They cut like a sword. They broke the heart like a hammer. Multitudes can attest to this. Oftentimes a word dropped without my remembering it would fasten conviction, and often result in almost immediate conversion. Sometimes I would find myself, in a great measure, empty of this power. I would go and visit, and find that I made no saving impression. I would exhort and pray, with the same result. I would then set apart a day for private fasting and prayer, fearing that this power had departed from me, and would inquire anxiously after the reason of this apparent emptiness. After humbling myself, and crying out for help, the power would return upon me with all its freshness. This has been the experience of my life.
---
Stephen Olford gives a similar testimony as he checked into a motel and committed to stay and pray until he was baptized by the Holy Spirit so God could empower him for service. God answered and gave him a powerful ministry reaching the world through radio during the golden radio years and he continues his ministry by teaching ministers. Billy Graham said that Stephen Olford had a powerful influence over his life. Stephen prayed with Billy until he was baptized and then God exploded Billy Graham’s evangelistic ministry.
I have included some of the testimonies of some of the greatest theologians and evangelists in history. Why have we missed this important truth about the gospel? This truth is overshadowed by counterfeits and sensationalism which directs us away from the true power God desires for every believer. Also notice that none of these men reported speaking in tongues. It is a misguided belief that tongues is a required sign as proof of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. By their testimonies and writings, none of these men ever spoke in tongues, yet when they were baptized by the Holy Spirit, it transformed their lives and empowered them for God’s service. The baptism of the Holy Spirit immediately shifted their focus from their ministry to God’s purpose. The purpose of speaking in tongues is not important to this study. What is important is that God’s power is like God’s grace. He offers it equally to all
_________________
Paul Frederick West
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| | 2006/11/24 13:24 | Profile | GraceAlone
Member
Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida
| | Re: | | I kindly ask you to keep an open mind by the power of the Spirit.
Quote:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" If we follow your logic, based on your understanding of I Cor. 12:13 (which Paul wrote!) Why would he even need to ask this question? We are all baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at conversion, this is true. But is there something else to "tarry" after?
Just because he asks this question doesn't mean mean that this happens to everybody. Obivously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit. From the Day of Pentecost thats when Christ began to send His Spirit to validate His promise to send the Spirit. As the apostles were teaching, Christ was validating thier message by sending His Spirit to Greek believers as well as Jews so that it could be manifested that they are true apostles and that Greeks could be saved. He was stamping His approval on the newly founded true Church.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Quote:
Why would Finney lie of a baptism if everyone gets baptized and filled by the Holy Spirit at conversion as you say? Why would Ravenhill and Wilkerson and Keith Green and Moody and Finney and Cymbala and others lie about a Spirit Baptism that is separate from the conversion experience?
Honestly, I believe its a lack of scripture knowledge. Besides these guys are recent preachers. Why didnt Spurgeon, John Wesley, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Billy Sunday, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John MacArthur, R C Sproul, John Piper, George Whitefield
and more preach about this? Were they lying? This second blessing is a very new doctrine and I can say its not historical or biblical.
_________________
Kristy
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| | 2006/11/24 13:46 | Profile | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: exposing sin - is this the way to do it? | | Quote:
we all have to be careful when you watch edited pieces of information through any media without knowing the whole.
I would like to address, not just this video, but the whole issue of exposing the sin of others in the public eye.
As I was fast-forwarding through the video, Noah came to mind. Noah was caught on the video-camera of someones mind his son Ham who thought nothing of blabbing on his dads disgraceful condition. God was not pleased with Noah
. oops
I mean, with Ham (!!!) and even cursed Ham and his descendents as a result.
Yet, we think nothing today of exposing the shameful condition of others displaying their nakedness for the world to see. It even feels righteous, even expected as part of the of revival burden package, or discernment ministry.
I feel that this pastor on the video acted shamefully by drawing the public eye to these shameful behaviors. What would he think of a camera catching him eating a big piece of cake while in his underwear, and then exposing it to the world (shame, shame on a Christian leader who is a glutton)
Remember, some of these people on these clips may be relatives of viewers and may be devastated, or these people may have repented long ago.
The flesh relishes in the exposure of sin. Lets face it, we still practise the ancient ritual of tarring and feathering using shame as a means of teaching the criminal a lesson or two. This video is just one example of what the Pharisees did with the woman caught in adultery. The dragged her through the streets and planted her on the platform where Jesus was teaching a crowd. Imagine: her relatives, her kids, her peers all watching. Her reputation would have been marred for life, even thought THAT DAY she very likely repented.
Where are our Shems and our Japheths? Those who cover shame instead of going st st st st and then talking about it.
I fear that, even while seeking revival we may actually be inviting a curse on ourselves if we do not exercise careful discernment in how we post about other peoples sins.
Why is it that threads that talk about contriversial people (sinners) are far more popular than threads that expose our own sins, and exhort us to godliness?
It is so easy to get distracted from the pursuit of godliness. We end up with a famine on threads that edify, and encourage the lost, despondent, and lonely those who might drop in looking for a refreshing drink of water - the very ones whom God is so eager to touch through us.
Let us not set up temptations. Do we really want people to have their minds defiled with such images and comments? Let's face it, once you hear or see something, it's hard to erase.
Whatever is true
. noble
right
. pure
lovely
.. admirable
If anything is excellent or praiseworthy think about such things. Phil. 4:8
_________________
Diane
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| | 2006/11/24 14:05 | Profile | GraceAlone
Member
Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida
| | Re: | | I kindly ask you to keep an open mind by the power of the Spirit.
Quote:
"Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" If we follow your logic, based on your understanding of I Cor. 12:13 (which Paul wrote!) Why would he even need to ask this question? We are all baptized into Christ by the Holy Spirit at conversion, this is true. But is there something else to "tarry" after?
Just because he asks this question doesn't mean mean that this happens to everybody. Obivously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit. From the Day of Pentecost thats when Christ began to send His Spirit to validate His promise to send the Spirit. As the apostles were teaching, Christ was validating thier message by sending His Spirit to Greek believers as well as Jews so that it could be manifested that they are true apostles and that Greeks could be saved. He was stamping His approval on the newly founded true Church.
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one bodywhether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or freeand have all been made to drink into one Spirit.
2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.
Acts 10:45
And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
Quote:
Why would Finney lie of a baptism if everyone gets baptized and filled by the Holy Spirit at conversion as you say? Why would Ravenhill and Wilkerson and Keith Green and Moody and Finney and Cymbala and others lie about a Spirit Baptism that is separate from the conversion experience?
Honestly, I believe its a lack of scripture knowledge. Besides these guys are recent preachers. Why didnt Spurgeon, John Wesley, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Billy Sunday, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John MacArthur, R C Sproul, John Piper, George Whitefield
and more preach about this? Were they lying? This second blessing is a very new doctrine and I can say its not historical or biblical.
John 21:16
He said to him again a second time, Simon, son of Jonah, do you love Me? He said to Him, Yes, Lord; You know that I love You. He said to him, Tend My sheep.
_________________
Kristy
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| | 2006/11/24 14:16 | Profile | PaulWest
Member
Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas
| | Re: | | God bless you, sister. Yes, let's keep an open mind in God's Spirit. I am prepared not to argue, but to discuss in a spirit of meekness and respect for a dear fellow servant of our Lord Jesus Christ. And now, let us begin:
Quote:
Obivously this happened because Christ was sending his Spirit to those who were believers at that time. Because although they were believers Christ had not yet sent His Spirit.
Sister, how have you concluded this? I thought the Spirit was poured out in its entirety on the day of Pentecost. Immediately after Peter preached, 3,000 were converted. Was the Holy Spirit later hampered in by geographic location and/or ethnicity? If so, when and why did God suddenly stop demonstrating and stamping approval on his church? You said that just because Paul asked the question to the Ephesian believers that it doesn't mean it pertains to everybody. Again, how have you concluded this? Experientially? It appears to me that your reasoning is a convenient disregarding of this entire occurence so it can fit nicely into a biased theological framework. I would think that we would need this demonstration power especially today for these perilous times in which we live! Just because J. Vernon McGee and Dr. David Jeremiah and RC Sproul and John MacArthur and Hank Hanagraaf (sp?) say one thing, it certainly doesn't make it valid. Before Luther, the doctrine of justification lay buried. Before Wesley, the doctrine of sanctification lay buried. The men you propose as great Bible scholars are, in fact, awesome men of God, but we must remember that even the great Charles Spurgeon spoke from his own own theological bias - illuminated by the Holy Ghost - and interpreted the scriptures as such.
So, why and when did God stop stamping approval upon certain believers as according to scripture? Where in scripture does it say he would stop the signs before that which is perfect had come?
Quote:
Honestly, I believe it’s a lack of scripture knowledge.
That's a presumptuous statement, friend! John Wesley spoke of (and experienced) the Spirit Baptism. And men like John MacArthur and RC Sproul are also [i]modern[/i] preachers - and much more modern than Ravenhill and Finney and Moody! Are you prepared to say that Moody and Torrey and Ravenhill and Wesley were blind and deceived and experienced an unbiblical doctrine (who were not Pentecostals or Wesleyans) and that only the theologians of your Calvinistic ilk are right and have the proper interpretation? Most of the preachers you presented to me in your defense were Calvinists. I respect them all, and though I believe they were wrong on some things, I wouldn't say that only the Arminian theologians have truth and all others are in error.
No, they couldn't lie about something they had never experienced - unles they knew they received it and still claimed they hadn't. The burden of proof is on you! We claimed to have experienced it; yet you say that we haven't. You claim that it's impossible, unscriptural, that it's a heretical lie. But I say that a person can be willfully blind to a truth that their denominational, cessationist taboos forbid them from seeking. It's always more safe to just go with the flow. 8-)
God bless you,
Brother Paul
_________________
Paul Frederick West
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| | 2006/11/24 14:17 | Profile | searchin
Member
Joined: 2006/10/18
Posts: 125
u.s.a. /
| | Re: False Prophets Chaos! | | wow! way too much to take in without a broken heart driving me to prayer. God is faithful.
these men represent the pentecostal church in america in our day...thats sad. (i say that without judging these individuals)
but they and there actions and deciet should not be our measure by which we determine truth or doctrine. we can't denounce our belief in spiritual gifts becuse of the distorted view of a handful of ministers...(in comparison to the many believers past and present they represent a small number) we must seek God in prayer and stay true to the Word of God.
paul; said follow me as i follow Christ...in order to know if he was following Christ one must know christ for himself |
| | 2006/11/24 14:45 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Quote:
Honestly, I believe its a lack of scripture knowledge. Besides these guys are recent preachers. Why didnt Spurgeon, John Wesley, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Billy Sunday, Matthew Henry, Jonathan Edwards, John Bunyan, John MacArthur, R C Sproul, John Piper, George Whitefield
and more preach about this? Were they lying? This second blessing is a very new doctrine and I can say its not historical or biblical.
Sister, I encourage you to listen to this message by brother Bill McCleod that he recently gave at a Heartcry (Paul Washer) prayer conference in Alabama.
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/visit.php?lid=13743
Just so you know, brother McCleod is a Calvinist and he does believe in the filling of the Holy Spirit that our brother PaulWest is trying to get across.
On a side note...I think this thread is going in at least two different directions...speaking in tongues and the deeper Christian experience. Interesting... :-? |
| | 2006/11/24 15:32 | |
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