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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : False Prophets Chaos!

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GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 False Prophets Chaos!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-292748952186052796&q=benny+hinn+tongues&hl=en

LOOK AT THIS VIDEO ON THE CURRENT CHARISMATIC MOVEMENT!


_________________
Kristy

 2006/11/21 16:46Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re: False Prophets Chaos!

not everything on this video is false... Not all is of God

some is definitely emotion. some probably started in the spirit, then got carried away. Some of it is men of God who aren't perfect in word or speech. Lots of stuff is taken out of true context and even the manner in which it was meant.

The speaker gives absolutely no balance in scripture and is totally one sided.

"if any man offend not in word, that man is perfect lacking nothing, able to bridle the whole body."

lets not be so quick to excuse.


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Matt Chenier

 2006/11/21 18:15Profile
blinx
Member



Joined: 2006/10/10
Posts: 57
Oeiras, Portugal

 Re: False Prophets Chaos!

Don't you mean false teachers?

2 Peter
1 But false prophets also arose among the people, as false teachers will also be among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master who bought them, bringing on themselves swift destruction.

If, in fact, you mean false teachers I have a questions for you:

- Are they denying the Master (who bought them)?
[i][size=x-small](P.S.: Let it be noted that the false teachers are BORN AGAIN christians, who once were saved, but then denied the Master, WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringin on themselves swift destruction.)[/size][/i]

the charismatic movement has some exaggerations and some errors, but they should not be labeled as the False Teachers in the bible, nor false prophets, they are our brothers in Christ.


_________________
João Tiago

 2006/11/22 4:52Profile









 Re: False Prophets Chaos!

Matthew 7:16 "You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

Listening to Zac Poonen's [url=http://64.34.176.235/sermons/SID7782.mp3]Two Types of Believer's in the Last Days Pt 1[/url] enlightened me that gifts of the spirit and the fruits of the spirit are two very different things.

Zac said, "Jesus didn't say we'd know them by their gifts. No, we'd know them by their fruits." (Paraphrased by me!)

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Galatians 5.22-23

Let's go back to Matthew 7.22. Who did he say to depart from him? "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?"

IMHO, these above all have the gifts of the spirit "without" any fruits to go along with them. (Remember what Paul wrote in 1 Cor 13.1-2)

I'm not against any gifts at all!! We are to desire spiritual gifts but we are also to desire the fruits of the spirits to balance us out since we will known by them!

All I want to add to this discussion is that we will know ANY apostle, prophet, teacher ....
by their love,
by their joy,
by their peace,
by their patience,
by their gentleness,
by their goodness,
by their faith,
by their meekness,
and by their self-control.

 2006/11/22 6:32
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2680
Nottingham, England

 Re: False Prophets Chaos!

Watched the video.

Nothing to say really, just use our own judgment.

God bless.

 2006/11/22 7:02Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
(P.S.: Let it be noted that the false teachers are BORN AGAIN christians, who once were saved, but then denied the Master, WHO BOUGHT THEM, bringin on themselves swift destruction.)

I believe you're absolutely wrong about what you are saying. Then again I'm a calvinistic in my theology.

Look at this verse CAREFULLY! I still haven't heard a DECENT explanation from an arminian.

1 John 3:6
"Whoever (habitually practices) sins has neither seen Him nor known Him."

__________________________________________________

Heres another video... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xCwmw8tf7k

__________________________________________________
Quote:
the charismatic movement has some exaggerations and some errors, but they should not be labeled as the False Teachers in the bible, nor false prophets, they are our brothers in Christ.

The ones in the video were heretical... did you even see what they were saying? I'm not talking about biblically sound charismatics... I'm talking about the false "prophets" and false "teachers" who lead people to hell along with them.

2 Peter 2:1
"But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them— bringing swift destruction on themselves."

You can't go to hell and have ever been saved. (1 John 3:6)

Quote:
not everything on this video is false... Not all is of God


I don't believe it's of God and its not essential for salvation anyway.

1 Corinthians 14:33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.


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Kristy

 2006/11/22 16:59Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re: False Prophets Chaos!

Oh gracealone, i have held my tongue for as long as i can.

You not only withhold the fullness of your personal walk, but also the fullness of your ministry.

1co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

This more excellent way is not an essential for salvation, but it is not only a greater and closer walk with jesus, but i say, IT MAY BE THE ESSENTIAL FOR THE SALVATION OF THOSE YOU CARE ABOUT.

Ac 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Ac 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many * * days hence.


to paraphrase. DON'T WORRY ABOUT PREACHING TO THE GENTILES OR THE ENDS OF THE EARTH UNTIL YOU ARE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY GHOST. gracealone, you post about the importance of evangelism, but you rail and persecute the means by which God gives us to confirm our message.

1co 2:4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in DEMONSTRATION OF THE SPIRIT AND OF POWER:
1co 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

What do these demonstrations look like. Signs, wonders, miracles.

My pastor once told me we don't seek God for the signs. For they are just a sign, they can't give you life. He said we don't go to McDonald's for the golden arches but for the hamburgers. We don't come to God for signs, but for the bread of life.

I agree completely. However, IF I DON'T SEE THE GOLDEN ARCHES, I KNOW IM NOT AT MCDONALDS. If i don't see signs wonders and miracles, i know that Jesus isn't here.

Mr 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mr 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mr 16:17 And these SIGNS shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mr 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

If there are no signs, do you really believe?

The devil has stripped you of many things. "Fear hath torment." that word torment mean in the greek means, "to prune." Your fear of the fullness of God has pruned your ministry.


Last i say this, Jesus said, if you know the father you would know me, for i and the father are one. right? Well i say, if you don't know the holy spirit, you don't know jesus, for Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one! Do you know the holy spirit when he manifests himself? Let me say, I guess that you probably are truly saved. And i know that the signs and wonders of God are puzzling and perplexing, but as the bible says, "that christ may dwell in your hearts by faith." So must we receive all things of God by faith, and not the natural man, which receives not the things of the spirit.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Joh 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be ?
Joh 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
Joh 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?


I also ask for scriptural proof that the signs and wonders that followed the apostles are not for today.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/11/23 2:25Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

First off you're going on a tangent. I'm not talking about all charismatics... I'm talking about the ones on my videos. Also, show me in history where Charles Surgeon, Martin Luther, George Whitfield, John MacArthur SPOKE IN GIBERISH. Besides that, I have to say that the fruit of the movement is best desribed by these videos.


2 Corinthians 12:12
Truly the signs of an apostle were accomplished among you with all perseverance, in signs and wonders and mighty deeds.

Acts 2
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven. 6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language. 7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans? 8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born? 9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia, 10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes, 11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.” 12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, “Whatever could this mean?”

These wer intelligible languages meant as a sign to unbelievers.


1 Cor 14

12
Even so you, since you are zealous for spiritual gifts, let it be for the edification of the church that you seek to excel.

22
Therefore tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers

40
Let all things be done decently and in order.

15
What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.

26
Let all things be done for edification.

33
For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

1 cor 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. (What is this better way??? Its LOVE not tounges)

Quote:
DON'T WORRY ABOUT PREACHING TO THE GENTILES OR THE ENDS OF THE EARTH UNTIL YOU ARE BAPTIZED IN THE HOLY GHOST. gracealone, you post about the importance of evangelism, but you rail and persecute the means by which God gives us to confirm our message.

Now you're telling me not to evangelize... Devil's advice or Gods???

First off, all true Christians (charismatic or not) have been baptized into the spirit PERIOD!

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

I'm not persecuting the TRUE church. If you were a christian you'd be on Gods side here (Matthew 12:30). You wouldn't tell me not to preach the gospel. Also, God converts sinners and that is our means of CONFIRMATION.


Besides all this LOOK at what YOU'RE DEFENDING! These people on this video are complete heretics even denying the trinity!!!!!!


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Kristy

 2006/11/24 0:10Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

Ac 19:1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was * at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
Ac 19:2 He said unto them *, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him *, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
Ac 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Ac 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Ac 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Ac 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.

All believers are not baptized in the holy ghost, but with the baptism of repentance. The baptism in the holy ghost is a separate work.

Ro 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound ?
Ro 6:2 God forbid *. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein *
Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Ro 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:


You also passed over 1 cor 13:1

1co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.

I know that love is the principal, but tongues is important. And the tongues of angels is the gibberish you are talking about.

I do believe you should preach either way, baptized in the h.g. or not, but you won't be anointed for the fullness of your calling.

I do acknowledge the greatness of the fruit of the men you listed. However, i believe they would have done more had they been baptized in the H.G.

The baptism in the Holy Ghost is way more than tongues. Tongues is just the outward evidence of an inward filling.

And before you call the work of the spirit of God to be of devils....

Mt 12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat.
Mt 12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
Mt 12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;
Mt 12:4 How he entered into * the house of God, and did eat the shewbread *, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?
Mt 12:5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?
Mt 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.
Mt 12:7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.
Mt 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.
Mt 12:9 And when he was departed thence, he went into their synagogue:
Mt 12:10 And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful * to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him.
Mt 12:11 And he said unto them, What man shall there be among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and lift it out ?
Mt 12:12 How much then is a man better than a sheep? Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
Mt 12:13 Then saith he to the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it forth; and it was restored whole, like as the other.
Mt 12:14 Then the Pharisees went out, and held a council against him, how they might destroy him.
Mt 12:15 But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Mt 12:16 And charged them that they should not make him known:
Mt 12:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,
Mt 12:18 Behold my servant, whom I have chosen; my beloved, in whom my soul is well pleased: I will put my spirit upon him, and he shall shew judgment to the Gentiles.
Mt 12:19 He shall not strive, nor cry; neither shall any man hear his voice in the streets.
Mt 12:20 A bruised reed shall he not break, and smoking flax shall he not quench, till he send forth judgment unto victory.
Mt 12:21 And in his name shall the Gentiles trust.
Mt 12:22 Then was brought unto him one possessed with a devil, blind, and dumb: and he healed him, insomuch that the blind and dumb both spake and saw.
Mt 12:23 And all the people were amazed, and said, Is not this the son of David?
Mt 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.
Mt 12:25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:
Mt 12:26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand ?
Mt 12:27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out ? therefore * * they shall be your judges.
Mt 12:28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.
Mt 12:29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
Mt 12:30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.
Mt 12:31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Mt 12:32 And whosoever * * speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever * * speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

The Holy Spirit you are persecuting is the same holy spirit that dwells in you as a believer. I do believe your saved. I just think you need to be baptized in the holy ghost. i don't try to offend by seeming like I'm on a tangent, but i get tired of people calling the work of God the work of devils. You had better be careful of what you accuse to be false. I do agree that leading people around on ropes like dogs is the persuasion of devils. Not necessarily possession, but emotion and lack of understanding. Also note what the onlookers said about the disciples at pentecost.

Ac 2:13 * Others mocking said *, These men are full of new wine.
Ac 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
Ac 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
Ac 2:16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

Why did they think they were drunk? Probably because that is an effect of the holy spirit. I have experience it many times and you might too if you believed and surrendered to the work of God.
God bless.


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Matt Chenier

 2006/11/24 1:39Profile
dohzman
Member



Joined: 2004/10/13
Posts: 2132


 I watched the video

Here's my thoughts on this, that while it's clear on the video. and that some groups have made some real errors in judgement, we all have to be careful when you watch edited pieces of information through any media without knowing the whole. Proverbs says that the fool answers without knowing the whole. In much the same way that the media (news reporters) exploits a story for thier own purposes in order to move public opinion the direction they want to, this video has the potential to do the same.

Having said that I disagreed with most of these ministries shown on the video many many years ago anyway, but that's for me personally.


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D.Miller

 2006/11/24 5:41Profile





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