| Poster | Thread | letsgetbusy
Member
Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia
| | Peter's Conversion: When? | | All opinions welcome. We all could learn something, here. I will read over the Scriptures and post later what I think.
_________________
Hal Bachman
|
|  2006/11/19 23:26 | Profile | JFEdgar
Member
Joined: 2005/10/21
Posts: 133
Wellington, Ohio
| | Re: Peter's Conversion: When? | | John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
_________________
Joe E
|
| | 2006/11/20 1:02 | Profile | JoeA
Member
Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 364
Decatur, Illinois
| | Re: | | I too have wondered when the 12 apostles were born-again, and i believe that it was after Christ was risen, and He had revealed Himself to them. They witnessed His death, and believed in His resurrection. He then came and breathed the Holy Spirit upon them. I believe that is when they were born-again. We were all saved the same way. He revealed Himself to us, we believed in His death and resurrection, and He breathed His life into us.
_________________
Joe Auvil
|
| | 2006/11/20 1:18 | Profile | blinx
Member
Joined: 2006/10/10
Posts: 57
Oeiras, Portugal
| | Re: | | 29 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ."
30 He commanded them that they should tell no one about him
This was before the crucifixion, so they confessed Him and believed in Him and were converted BEFORE the ressurection.
_________________
João Tiago
|
| | 2006/11/22 4:41 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: When? | | Quote:
29 He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ."
Matthew remarks;
Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Quote:
This was before the crucifixion, so they confessed Him and believed in Him and were converted BEFORE the ressurection.
Strangely enough there might be something in this to look at and compare with our present situation in large part today.
"[i]When[/i]" can be sometimes an elusive question in this regard. My own coming out of the darkness more akin to the sun rising slowly than the assault upon the senses that the blinding light of holiness that put out Paul's eye's for a number of days. It may have culminated into one night, a moment in hindsight to look back upon, but it still had the same [i]slow to hear[/i] attributes that the disciples where often chided for.
Peter did say the things that he did, when he did and we all know he also denied his Lord, walked on water to a point, attempted to give Malcus a haircut [i]and[/i] a shave simultaneously and even after hearing repeatedly the same statement,
Luk 24:7 Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
from the Lord and even right up to,
[i]In that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God. I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father. His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb. Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?[/i] Joh 16:26
A departure from Peter to more generalities but looking back through all the accounting that was given by the apostles and disciples, short of Paul's dramatic experience and a few other mentions there may be much more to something often stated in these parts; That [i]along the way[/i] or in the definition that believing maintains, that of continuance, having a 'when' experience may or may not be necessary as far as we are concerned. In other words, as much as there is always some truth in the poor phraseology of "once saved ... always" there is just as much danger in it's cousin 'saying the sinners prayer' if it could be understood and taken along with where John left off above and where the Lord continues;
Joh 16:32 [i]Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.[/i]
In our parlance we would be accused of accusing them of backsliding or worse.
Certainly the day of Pentecost was a culmination and an end result of sorts that Jesus stated would come to pass, but prior to that they had seen the risen Lord, why not then? Why not well earlier with even Jesus recognizing Peter's recognition of that which was revealed to him?
They all walked with Him somewhere around 3 years, learning from the greatest teacher that has every graced this planet and much more than a teacher, [i]The[/i] teacher. And yet they were often ignorant, confused, one minute full of faith the next doubtful, fretful ... [i]full of sorrow[/i], perplexed. Remember John the Baptist? After the first and greatest open air preacher of all time made emphatic statements of [i]The lamb of God[/i] very early on, right at the beginning of Jesus' earthly ministry ... Need to slip in a side note here, ever noticed how [i]slowly[/i] this all began, even with the dove alighting upon Him? Continuing the thought, later the same John stated;
[i]And John calling unto him two of his disciples sent them to Jesus, saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?[/i] Luk 7:19
Where the thought's traveled along this matter by way of comparison to our day is in a number of things. We have and well know the numbers of 'professing believers' presently and if we are honest, many of them were ourselves possibly at some point, put to the test, would find the same startling remarks from the Lord;
[i]But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men, and needed not that any should testify of man: for he knew what was in man.[/i] Joh 2:24,25
[i]But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.[/i] Joh 6:64
[i]From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.[/i] Joh 6:66
Bringing this full circle back to Peter and the 12,
[i]Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and [u]are sure[/u] that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.[/i]
Joh 6:67-69
Underscored that, recalling that the same Peter would later respond to the question;
[i]"You, too, were with Jesus from Nazareth."
But he denied it, saying, "I don't know or understand what you're talking about."[/i] Mar 14:67,68
Maybe the whole point here is just to point out that where we might want an explanation for everything, 'moments', clean milestones and even press for such things with our cleverly crafted [i]saying[/i] a 'sinners prayer' (Is there really such a thing in scripture?) it may be something of a starting point towards repentance, but repeating words ... well don't even the out takes of the scriptures above have a great deal of this and yet ... Where we have a 'decision' there is the simplicity of the thief on the cross. Where even the closest of companions were having doubts along comes the great faith of,
[i]The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.[/i] Mat 8:8
There is the great and fully missed understanding often times of that which [i]must[/i] come to pass,
[i]Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.[/i] Joh 3:3
Along with the whole of the great explanatory parable of the seed and the sower. Which, [i]when[/i]?
What of,
[i]And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, he said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.[/i] Act 19:1-6
Where we have dictates and mandates, codifying verses, decision cards and "OSAS" stamped on our Heavenly passports we also have a forgotten exhortation that;
[i]He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.[/i] Mar 16:16
And the same Peter,
[i]Receiving the [u]end[/u] of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.[/i] 1Pe 1:9
Later on stating;
[i]Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you [u]at[/u] the revelation of Jesus Christ;[/i]
[i]And ye [u]shall[/u] be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that [u]shall endure unto the end[/u], the same [u]shall be saved[/u].[/i] Mar 13:13
Continuance is the word, [i]believing[/i],
[i]And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.[/i] 1Jo 3:23
[i]These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.[/i] 1Jo 5:13
Would be well into the whole of the New Testament attempting to draw all the different attributes, statements, those that we know well and often circle around and hold fast to, at the expense of all the others. We may know indeed that we have eternal life but that must be a far cry in the confusion that "Once\always" carries in it's baggage, putting the end before the beginning, interrupting that which is continual. So as the 'must's' put forth by even the well intentioned by proof speaking verses into forms of dictates, such as speaking in tongues as a [i]'condition'[/i] and all kinds of other folly.
What is so fascinating and constantly proving us to be so distinctly human is the paradoxical, mysteriousness of the Lords ways. The same Lord who stated the "must" of being born again also expressed it as,
[i]The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[/i] Joh 3:8
We often will not allow ourselves the liberty of conscience that excuses us from cold, hard, facts and believe what the Lord said,
[i]Canst[/i]
While we [i]insist[/i] so to make our lives easier and our 'witness' something we formulate, regurgitate, practically sell, having gotten so caught up in the ways of commerce and methods of mans creating. Add a dose of pragmatism, humanism and there you have it, a nice, gift wrapped package, but far too often a great letdown once it's opened. But surveying back through the scriptures seems to indicate otherwise. Is not the emphasis always on the here and now?
"[i]Today[/i] is the day of salvation".
Apologize if this seems to be going off track from the original question. It is interesting to me that the attempt to find these things out seems elusive, even if there is a culmination on the day the Holy Spirit was poured out. Doesn't it seem inadequate to think that during those years that ate and drank, physically and spiritually with Jesus Himself, to put a question mark in the middle and put a "day" at the end rather than along the way, [i]believing[/i], doubt's and questions, confusion and misunderstandings, yet the Lord [i]knew all along those ...[/i]. Surely they didn't slip through His fingers, "I have kept ..." (Joh 17:12)
It is a wonderful thing to wonder sometimes rather than having to explain that which we are still yet hesitant about. Cannot speak for everyone nor anyone for that matter. Dramatic conversions? Of course! Slow, life long muddling, fumbling, poor gardening (Back to the parable again). When does the seed get planted? How does it grow? In my case was it at 6 years old, frightened at the prospect of "nothingness" upon death and a conviction of "There [i]must[/i] be a God" or was it just fear prompting as the philosophers and psychologists would have it? The "God shaped hole" as it has been put? Why the strange sense of understanding even then that this wasn't a crafting of my own making? Or was it in the late teens, early 20's having all sorts of inner convictions and subconscious level rebellion, often raising up into the conscience and assaulting the little stability that a fallen mind has, even if the heart, full of wickedness also carried great concerns for others, for peace, the makings of a 'peacekeeper'? Was it shortly after, being witnessed to by a classmate, others that providentially crossed the path or through all things the [i]devils music[/i] as we have just been discussing recently?
How strange to look back upon the one night in tears of repentance and despairing at the debauchery and miry pit of sin that I was swimming in, the course of warmth shot through the veins of the Holy Spirit (make of it which you will) that happened at least twice before but the response was the same as Peter "[i]I do not know the Man[/i]", denying, clinging to the sin that I still yet loved though hated, wanted to be rid of yet not quite all of it. The last milestone, would put this one around the age of now 34, that great night of unbelievable forgiveness that was carried through the heat passing into the veins and into the heart.
How strange is it that another year and a half would pass before I would even open a Bible and then go right off into the wacky world of "Name it and claim it"...
Quite the journey thus far, this [i]belieiving[/i]...
When? ;-)
Now some 8-9 years beyond, maybe it was Tozer and SI ...
_________________
Mike Balog
|
| | 2006/11/22 9:29 | Profile | crsschk
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | If all that wasn't long-winded enough, had another thought, one that I could but pray is not taken with the wrong spirit of intention...
Ever notice how many of things we do, ask of, question, reason about are not found or even bothered with in scripture? No recounting of how long they followed the Lord, [i]when[/i] they "believed", questions never asked, answers never given, methods never outlined, propositions not followed to the letter ... These things that we now do almost without question.
It is [i]interesting[/i] as mentioned earlier, but interesting for a whole number of other reasons.
_________________
Mike Balog
|
| | 2006/11/22 9:49 | Profile | RobertW
Member
Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
Bro. Mikes... We often will not allow ourselves the liberty of conscience that excuses us from cold, hard, facts and believe what the Lord said,
I think this is very true. We try to get everything fitted in our neat little boxes. It blocks us from believing even the simplest of things.
There is a statement made in Hebrews that I think may shed some light on this topic. We read,
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Hebrews 10:38)
The words here 'draw back' come from the idea of [i]furling the sails[/i]. While going into battle the ships could furl the sails and slow or stop their progress into trouble. If I lower the sails we can reason that at point and time we had to have 'raised the sails'. At the point in which we raise the sails it would seem to me metaphorically that we are converted. So then I have to ask, "when did they raise the sails?" I think it is a different question to ask when they were born again. I would say that took place in Acts 2.
_________________
Robert Wurtz II
|
| | 2006/11/22 12:47 | Profile |
|
