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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Future sins forgiven already?

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TaylorOtwell
Member



Joined: 2006/6/19
Posts: 927
Arkansas

 Re:

Quote:
I suppose the "bottom line" is simple: Don't abandon your relationship with Christ or return to a life of sin (2 John 1:8-10).



Amen! :-)


_________________
Taylor Otwell

 2006/11/20 17:40Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

Ac 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as * * on us at the beginning.
Ac 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Ac 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ *; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Ac 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life

Here paul uses the baptism in the holy ghost to prove the salvation of the gentiles.

Agreeing then that a man that is baptized in the Holy ghost must first be saved, i ask you to consider this.

I brought a man from work release in the jail to church and with tears he confessed his sifulness and asked christ into his heart. We prayed for him and he received the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. When jason got out of work release he went right back to the hog pen and has forsaken everything he started to walk. Now, was he baptized in the holy ghost and not saved? did he fake the tongues and we not know? is he still saved now as he embraces the world and its filthiness and avoids God? The answer to all of these is NO.



2pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome * , the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

How do you tell me that you don't see salvation in these 2 scriptures? "escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the LORD AND SAVIOUR jesus christ, they are AGAIN entangled. If your mind is not open to correction you won't receive it. He that hateth reproof is bruitish.

And once again there is only one way to get your name in the lambs book of life. thats salvation.. agreed?
Re 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Re 3:6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

please also not that the white and washed robes can be once again defiled. Is there any way to clean your garments other than the "washing of water of the word"

Concerning 1 Cor. 10. It doesn't mean the baptism in the holy ghost the the baptism in to death with christ jesus. Deliverance from the bondage of egypt(sin) It also says they drank of that rock jesus christ. They drank of the living water but turned back to idols and vanity.

Was is not by faith that the children of Israel ate the passover and survived the last plague? Did the application of blood save them or where they not altogether counted justified by faith?

Secondly, I have full confidence in my salvation today do you not have full confidence in yours.

Now are you going to tell me that either one of us can now leave off the faith (knowing that perfect faith is more than just belief "for even the devils believe", but true faith including saving faith is "faith wrought together with works" The greek for wrough meaning mixed or mingled.) and go directly back in to my fornications, drugs, lying, stealing and hatred. Knowing that "he that hateth his brother is a murderer and ye know murderer hath eternal life in him.


One last thing. I can't remember who wrote that they were not going to use "proof scripture" but the bible says ...

2ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for DOCTRINE, for REPROOF, for CORRECTION, for instruction in righteousness:

If you don't use the bible to prove, then your not proving anything.

Now i want to lastly say thank you for your discussions. Iron sharpeneth iron and i really appreciate you guys. Please don't take me as a railer or accuser. I love doctrine and theology so i get into it a lot. I also take a firm stand on what i believe. But know that i also am no fool and desire the instruction of wisdom that correction holds. Thank you with all love and humility.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/11/20 19:42Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Good post, brother. I sense a firestorm of challenge in the making. If everyone stays humble and teachable, we should have some good discussions.


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Paul Frederick West

 2006/11/20 19:57Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

Brother Matt,

Addressing your first question, I agree with Leonard Ravehill, that speaking in tongues proves nothing. Mormons, Muslims, and many cults speak in tongues. Missionaries, according to Ravenhill, have been heard to speak English around the fire while dancing. The only evidence of the Holy Ghost is a holy life. I am not a cessationist or anything like that, but tongues and tears don't prove anything. Wait and look for fruits meet for repentance. The greatest revivals in America and England had no tongues. Many revivals in other countries did have tongues. I am not saying they are not legitimate, I am simply saying they are not the end-all proof of anything. For poor Jason:

"the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended."


Adressing 2 Peter, the stony ground / thorny ground hearer in the parable of the sower parallels this individual Peter speaks of:

2 Peter 2: they have escaped the pollutions of the world

Mark 4: when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness

Luke 8: receive the word with joy / when they have heard, go forth

----------

2 Peter 2: they are again entangled therein, and

Mark 4: affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended

Luke 8: these have no root / choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life

----------

2 Peter 2: the latter end is worse with them than the beginning

As far as being brutish, I suppose every theologian, preacher, evangelist, teacher, and professor who doesn't believe in apostacy fit into the brute category, and all that believe in apostacy are more educated (if only Spurgeon had studied a bit more). C'mon, brother, that's a bit low, don't you think.

I would agree that all saints have their names written in the Book of Life.

Ex 32:33 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book."

I guess we don't have a chance. Oh, wait...

Col 2:14 "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross"

I am sorry if it offends you that I don't get the same interpretation from the Rev 3 passage. I hear Jesus saying he won't damn the saved. So actually I hear the opposite of what you are trying to prove with it. I hear him saying He won't cast out those who He has redeemed.

On 1 Cor 10, are you then saying that God puts His people in the wilderness to unsave the redeemed whose faith isn't pure?

"Now are you going to tell me that either one of us can now leave off the faith...and go directly back in to my fornications, drugs, lying, stealing and hatred"

No. I don't mean that, and I think you know I didn't say that. What I said about the person who does this, was that they were never saved. You say they fell away, I say they never had the Word rooted in their heart.

I will end with this question. To what degree of obediance does God demand of us for us to keep our salvation if salvation can be lost? Show me with Scripture references, please.

Until next time in the never-ending debate...


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Hal Bachman

 2006/11/21 0:10Profile
letsgetbusy
Member



Joined: 2004/9/28
Posts: 957
Cleveland, Georgia

 Re:

euangelion,

What I see in this illustration is that the man was not sorrowful for his debt, until he was going to be thrown into jail. Who wouldn't be. Satan himself would be foolish not to say he was sorry. So the man's attitude shows nothing. (...many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord). His worship shows nothing. Just an empty gesture to save his neck under pressure (like many do under a heavy sermon).

And notice, what the same man said to the king when he was brought the second time: the same words. He thought empty words, which obviously did not show his heart condition, could get him out of a predicament whenever convenient. Just as many think a 'sorry' to God here and there will cover a multitude of sins.

So I see in this story, one who never turned, never changed, and never was born-again. The forgiveness was offered to him, just as the blood is offered to "every man." Forgiveness is a free gift, but it is not cheap.

Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

So this man, if viewed through the parable of the sower (Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?), has no fruit, received the king's decision with gladness, and doesn't seem to show any compassion that the king had on him. No evidence of a heart-change on the outside, shows no work of Spirit-birth on the inside.


_________________
Hal Bachman

 2006/11/21 0:32Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

brother letsgetbusy

my first concern is the offense you took to my "he that hateth reproof is bruitish." i will only say i didn't mean to attack. If you took offense to me please forgive me. If you took offense to the word. ... anyways, i count you as a brother and my intent was not to hurt or throw a cheap shot.

i will use the parable you speak of to make a small demonstration

In the parable of the sower, the stony ground represents those who "receive the word" are paralleled to the man in this parable.

Lu 14:28 For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it?
Lu 14:29 Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him,
Lu 14:30 Saying, This * * man began to build, and was not able to finish.

The man BEGAN to build. He just doesn't have what it takes to finish. Paul said "i have ran a good race" and "fight the good fight of faith"

Ga 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Ga 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.
Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Ga 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you *, whosoever of you are justified by the law; YE ARE FALLEN FROM GRACE.



1co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
1co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
1co 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

note that he is speaking of "brothers" not those of this world.

Ga 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.


Also, in the parable of the sower, the seed that fell among thorny ground is not a backslider. For the bible never said the plant died. Jesus said the plant didn't produce fruit. The word of God grew in the man's life, but it didn't produce any fruit. The plant lived. But the cares and deceitfulness of riches choked out the man from doing the work of the lord. Producing no fruit and thereby not pleasing god. So it is rejected.


Were the galatians christians?
Ga 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:



Ga 4:8 Howbeit then *, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.
Ga 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage ?
Ga 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.
Ga 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain


1ti 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
1ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.


1ti 5:14 I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.
1ti 5:15 For some are already turned aside after Satan.


Re 3:15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
Re 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
Jesus can't spew you out of his mouth unless you are first in him.


Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Note here that is says the blood of the covenant wherewith he was SANCTIFIED. Meaning a man who was sanctified. the same as in 2 peter 2.

Ga 2:17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid *.
Ga 2:18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.


1co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Now tell me notwithstanding, are you saved? Are you sure your saved... if you say yes, then are you telling me that it is impossible for you to fall. This theory of yours, if it were true, would mean a man would never be able to have true assurance that he was saved. If you say you have this assurance in yourself, then you would be telling me that you could do anything you wanted fearlessly and go to Heaven. This can't be the truth.

Jas 5:9 Grudge not one against another *, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

A man is not a brother unless he is saved. So how can a brother be condemned?

Joh 15:2 Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
This speaks of members of the body of christ which are unpleasing to god being taken away.


To answer your question about where the line of backsliding is, I can't draw the line. But this I know. God is a perfect judge. And he will judge that.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/11/21 1:48Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

in all honest... as meditating up my own post. I feel God revealed to me a view i haven't quite seen. I feel i in some way understand your view notwithstanding, and if you view is what the lord just shown me, then i to an extent agree with you. but i say, it would be very difficult for me to even put into words. Its like my spirit gets it but how to put it into the flesh i don't get.

I will for now end my part of this discussion saying that i have been given revelation. I can't say whether i fully agree with you or not notwithstanding. This is because the revelation i got is so hard to explain, i can't tell if thats what you believe or not, but it does seem similar to what i am feeling. I can say this. Praise God for giving me new understanding. Thank you so much notwithstanding for challenging me to search the word and spirit. You have yielded fruit in my life today, and i'm excited to search this matter out more!!! So until i can find a way to explain it... God bless.

I do want to say i don't take back what i said in my other posts. I just feel i have been given deeper understanding on the subject.


_________________
Matt Chenier

 2006/11/21 1:57Profile
roman
Member



Joined: 2005/4/18
Posts: 41


 Re:

Just a thought to share on OSAS:

This is what I believe, salvation is a privilege and not RIGHTS.

A privilege is something that is granted to you by someone who has authority over you.

On the other hand, a right is something that you are born with and that cannot be taken away from you by anyone. (right to live)

Credit cards are privilege cards. The bank/company that issued it allows the holder to use it as long as they (bank/company) see it fit. If the bank/company sees any reason to cancel the card, the card holder will not have any rights to say no.

Now, the same thing with our salvation. Our salvation is a privilege and NOT RIGHTS.

You might say why did God saved people then let them perish at the end. Biblically, it is not God who allows people to perish but people themselves choose the path of eternal death. But to answer the question, God allows people to see & taste His grace, love, mercy, goodness, etc so that at the end no one can will have an excuse saying that he/she is not given a chance to be saved.

Peopel perish beacuse they chose too; so its God's judgment to them.

Romans 1:28 (KJV) And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Romans 1:20 (KJV) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Then again, you might ask again, isn’t it salvation is by grace? TOTALLY AGREE! But do you think, God extends His SAVING GRACE in a vacuum? I strongly believe NO. The Bible tells us “It is by grace THROUGH FAITH that we are saved” (Eph. 2:8). Another thing, for the grace to pass through faith, that faith should alive (not like the Dead Sea – nothing lives & can survive there because it’s dead); this is reference to James talking about dead faith. Nothing can pass through a dead conduit & a dead faith can not save.


Future sins are forgiven:

I believe its in regards to the effectiveness of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross that He can forgive past, present & future sins. But in no means should be used as an excuse saying whatever sin I do anyway God will forgive me. This is a blatant disrespect to the grace & holiness of God.

Romans 1:21-22 (KJV) 21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Romans 1:32 (KJV) Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!

 2006/11/21 2:20Profile
SherylAnne
Member



Joined: 2006/11/16
Posts: 15
Louisiana

 Re:

Quote:
I brought a man from work release in the jail to church and with tears he confessed his sifulness and asked christ into his heart. We prayed for him and he received the baptism in the holy ghost with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. When jason got out of work release he went right back to the hog pen and has forsaken everything he started to walk.



Been there, Brother, and it's really heart-wrenching isn't it? There is some kind of crude name given to this type of "salvation" that really is unfair, because there are genuine conversions in prison. But there are alot who just want to 'hedge their bets.' What happens is that the person in prison is sorry that they are in prison and they are sorry that they have messed up in life, but it is not "godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation" but "the sorrow of the world worketh death." They think 'maybe if [u][b]I[/b][/u] say all the right things and [u][b]I[/b][/u] do what is expected of [u][b]me[/b][/u], [u][b]I[/b][/u] will do better.' It's the big [u][b]I[/b][/u] worship, which was their problem to begin with, and when they get back into the world and find that they still must face the same problem (themselves), they give it up.

True godly sorrow that leads to salvation bears the fruit of a regeneration, we begin rejoicing and can still rejoice when we face our trials of faith...
"Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:"
I don't think a dog returning to its vomit is an illustration of a has-been, but a never-was.
What I get from the verses from 2 Peter is "knowledge" and "known" I don't see "faith,"
but you have given me some things to pray about and ponder. I have to admit, I've felt a bit like a 'butinsky' trying to play with the big boys but I've really enjoyed reading what all of you have had to say. Peace to you, Brother.

 2006/11/21 2:24Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.

 Re:

If salvation were of grace by faith through works, a person could most assuredly loose the salvation.

Salvation is not anatomically dependant on anything man does. Salvation is a Person. The salvation of a person is in the Lambs book of Life not put there by what the person does. Are we born again? What gives us birth? How is birth confirmed? What causes birth? Does a child have a choice in his birth?

The cause of a birth is seed is put in the receptacle that gives birth. When the seed is placed, life begins, birth is incidental to the placing of the seed. The seed then is a person. If we are person's and must be born again or we cannot see the things of God, what takes place to receive that birth.

1 Peter 1:19-25 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

The Seed of God is places in the believer and a new person comes forth, that is Born again of Incorruptable Seed. The salvation of God is now brought forth in rebirth and that rebirth is Spirit, that is the Spirit of Christ in you, a Person, Jesus Christ. A person cannot loose his birth of Christ in him just like he cannot loose his birth into the physical world.

The only way a child is not born into the world is by miscarriage or abortion. Death appears before the manifestation of Birth, so birth never occurs and if so it was not ever birth to start with, so it was not a choice to receive or not receive birth by choice or works, Ephesians 2:4-9 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So if birth is not of ourselves, and Grace is not of ourselves, and faith is not of ourselves unto salvation, but a Person, The Person of Jesus Christ in you the Hope of Glory, it is not our choice to loose our salvation, we cannot loose something that is not ours to begin with, to present every new man, born again, perfect in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

The old man is dead and he is the only one that would not choose God, so being, could loose salvation which he never possessed.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2006/11/21 3:57Profile





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