| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: Faith comes before salvation | | Logic said
Quote:
Truth is actualy a term for reality.
I agree.
I haven't read the whole thread, I confess, but, I thought you (Logic) might be interested in this from Oswald Chambers. Particularly note how he clarifies that obedience is not a [i]work[/i] which saves us.
However, as I see it, the realisations which dawn on us as a direct result of faith - our 'response' to His word - are something to do with the awakened spiritual consciousness which occurs at the same moment.
Ephesians 5 (NKJV)
6 Let no one [u]deceive[/u] you with [u]empty words[/u], for because of these things [u]the wrath of God comes upon the sons of [b]dis[/b]obedience[/u].
14 Therefore He says:
"Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light."
My Utmost for His Highest by Oswald Chambers
October 28th.
JUSTIFICATION BY FAITH
"For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life." Romans 5:10
I am not saved by believing; I realize I am saved by believing. It is not repentance that saves me, repentance is the sign that I realize what God has done in Christ Jesus. The danger is to put the emphasis on the effect instead of on the cause. It is my obedience that puts me right with God, my consecration. Never! I am put right with God because prior to all, Christ died. When I turn to God and by belief accept what God reveals I can accept, instantly the stupendous Atonement of Jesus Christ rushes me into a right relationship with God; and by the supernatural miracle of God's grace I stand justified, not because I am sorry for my sin, not because I have repented, but because of what Jesus has done. The Spirit of God brings it with a breaking, all-over light, and I know, though I do not know how, that I am saved.
The salvation of God does not stand on human logic, it stands on the sacrificial Death of Jesus. We can be born again because of the Atonement of Our Lord. Sinful men and women can be changed into new creatures, not by their repentance or their belief, but by the marvellous work of God in Christ Jesus which is prior to all experience. The impregnable safety of justification and sanctification is God Himself. We have not to work out these things ourselves; they have been worked out by the Atonement. The supernatural becomes natural by the miracle of God; [b]there is the [u]realization[/u] of what Jesus Christ has already done[/b] - "It is finished."
Unless a person experiences this 'realization', what do they know? Has the death of Christ made any difference to them? Not [i]inwardly[/i], I believe.
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|  2006/11/10 11:03 | | DesiJr
Member
Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113
| | Re: | | My dear brothers,
****READ CAREFULLY****
Here are a few points to my Calvanist brothers that believe that the act of "faith" or "believing" is a work that God sees as a filthy rag.
I plead with you to read everything in it's context, and consider the character of God.
John 1:12-13 (KJV)
12But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Point -- Verse 13 is prequalified with...
AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM ......then they were born of God.
Man must first believe God's promise and step out in complete faith and God will do what he promised. AND THIS STEPPING OUT IN FAITH OR BELIEVING GOD'S PROMISE OF GRACE IS NOT A WORK TOWARDS GOD IT'S A SURRENDERING TO GOD.
Rom 4:4 (KJV) (Stress by DesiJr for clarity)
4Now to him that WORKETH is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5But to him that WORKETH NOT, BUT BELIEVETH on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is COUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
--Point-- Verse 4 shows us the result of our works out of our flesh does not give us the grace we need for salvation.
--Point-- Verse 5 shows us clearly that BELIEVING is NOT A WORK, it defines it as faith that is counted as righteousness.
CHECK THIS OUT...GOD PRECEDES THE ENTIRE BOOK THAT TELLS YOU HOW TO BE MADE RIGHT IN GODS EYES WITH THIS STATEMENT IN VERSES 3 AND FOUR!!!
Lev 1:3 (KJV)(stress by DesiJr for clarity)
3If his offering be a burnt sacrifice of the herd, let him offer a male without blemish: he shall offer it of his OWN VOLUNTARY WILL at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation before the LORD.
4And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
--POINT-- This word voluntary is only used once in the hebrew tongue. It means pleasure or pleasing ones heart or out of love.
If you believe God's Word and receive it and out of love do what he asks of you....OBEDIENCE.... it is then that God will accept you and your faith is counted as righteousness.(verse 4 above)
*** Last two verses ***
Deut 30:6,10 (KJV)
6And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
10If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
---POINT--- Calvanist love to use verse 6 to prove their point that man can't surrender to God on his own free will....but KEEP READING!
Verse 10 tells you that the promises of God converting your heart must is all true...and WILL COME TO PASS ..... IF ..... turn to the Lord will all your heart. Then he will do the miracle of the rebirth and he will make you righteous and holy because your faith in the one that is righteous and holy.
Read everything that Jesus did and God did for His people. In order for God to do something specific in an individual's life they must first believe the Word and then through their faith they will step into the perfect will of God for their lives. BELIEVING GOD AND TRUSTING HIM IS NOT A WORK, AND IM SORRY BUT ITS NOT A FILTHY RAG.
I pray to you Father that you reveal yourself to us and tear down every imagination that we and the devil himself have built up to separate us from you. Thank you that your word says that nothing....NOTHING can separate the love that You have for us. We rely on your grace. In Jesus' name.
Amen
Desi Jr.
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| | 2006/11/14 14:57 | Profile | Christinyou
Member
Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3710
Ca.
| | Re: | | Deuteronomy 31:11 When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing.
Quote by Desi:
" BELIEVING GOD AND TRUSTING HIM IS NOT A WORK, AND IM SORRY BUT ITS NOT A FILTHY RAG. "
Deuteronomy 31:24-26 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
Deuteronomy 31:29-30 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. And Moses spake in the ears of all the congregation of Israel the words of this song, until they were ended.
Sounds like works to me and also as dirty rags to the Lord. "Until they were ended"
They were ended as a people to the Lord in A.D. 70 when the temple was destroyed and Christ became the only way anyone can be saved. God ended their wife status when the Temple Curtain was wrent.
The Faith of Jesus Christ is the only way anyone can be saved and that by Grace also. Not by any works lest any man should boast.
This Faith and Grace is in Christ. Ephesians 2:8-10 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Christ is our Good Works because we are new creatures in Christ Jesus. Our old works are as dirty rags and any person that does not receive the Grace and Faith in Christ Jesus will always be as dirty rags to God.
This Faith is the same Faith that leads to salvation dependent upon Him and Him alone.
Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Faith: 4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
By Him through God's Grace and The Faith: 4102. pistis
Search for G4102 in KJVSL
pistiV pistis pis'-tis
from 3982; persuasion, i.e. credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly, constancy in such profession; by extension, the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself:--assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
In reliance of the faith of Jesus Christ for salvation, we are assured from inside by: "to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield."
The root word of Faith, "Pistis" which is: 3982. peitho
Search for G3982 in KJVSL
peiqw peitho pi'-tho
a primary verb; to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):--agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.
The same Faith of Jesus Christ in Galatians 2:16 "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified."
And also 2:20
I am not a Calvinist, but I am a Christ one.
In Christ by the Grace of God and the Faith of Christ: Phillip
_________________
Phillip
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| | 2006/11/14 21:37 | Profile | DesiJr
Member
Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113
| | Re: | | My brother,
Qutestion:
Who's faith is counted for righteousness according the the scripture verse quoted below?
Romans 4:5 (KJV)
5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Answer:
Mankind's faith
You say brother Philip:
..."Sounds like works to me and also as dirty rags to the Lord. "Until they were ended"
They were ended as a people to the Lord in A.D. 70 when the temple was destroyed and Christ became the only way anyone can be saved. God ended their wife status when the Temple Curtain was wrent."
If this above statement is true then are you calling God a liar?
Were not many, many individuals counted as righteous by their faith in God's promises?:
Examples:
Abel, Noah, Ninevah (after Jonah preached, yet were destroyed later because they lost faith), Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Moses...and so on and so forth...God is the same yesterday today and forever....it always been about US TRUSTING GOD AND LIVING IN THAT TRUST that has made us right with God.
This is THE relationship...He creates...we believe...so, we are right with God.
So, brother Philip do you say that believing God at His Word (having faith in God) is a work?
Desi, Jr.
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| | 2006/11/15 11:05 | Profile | andres
Member
Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville
| | Re: | | I.Where does faith come from?
a.Jesus-Heb 12:3
b.word of God-romans 10-7
c.Holy spirit- gal.5.22
d.Mans Heart.-Romans 10.9
II. how does faith work?
a. thru LOVE- Gal.5.6
Love is the Key element to make faith true and effective..... So before faith can work in a man's heart to beleive in the Lord, Man's heart must be filled with Love for the Lord. Without this Love, man's natural faith in God would be purly selfish no matter how right it would seem in our own eyes.
so a man's heart needs to made over in Love so that God would place his faith in his newly made son's heart to believe to salvation.
rf. 1st corith.13.1-2;deut 30.6; Ezk. 36. 24-26; ACTS 13.48
III. Man after the fall
a. heart always evil-Gen 6.5
b. blindness in heart- eph 4.18
c. enemy of God.- rom. 5.10
d. impenitent (Non-repented) heart rom 2.5
IV. conclusion
Man can not have faith toward God unless God changes his heart so man can love God. If God never chaged mans heart first man could not have faith toward GOD. Man's heart is to blind, evil and unrepentent. to love GOD
love andy
_________________
andy
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| | 2006/11/20 19:39 | Profile | MattChenier
Member
Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA
| | Re: Faith comes before salvation | | In reply to logics original post i will give some food for thought, although i haven't searched much out...
I agree with logic and want to expound a couple things.
But first i must say i applaud your theology and enjoy this study. You are a man after my own heart!
The living Word
ok...
2co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
2co 3:15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon * their heart.
2co 3:16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
A man can hear the bible or scriptures preached but never "see or hear what the spirit is saying"
Only the spirit can reveal the son to a person. Therefore Yes, understanding must be given by god. How does God then judge who will understand and who won't. It's by whether or not your heart is turned to him. If it is, he will take the veil off of your heart and you will see the Spirit and Truth of the Word of God and not just the natural(flesh and blood for the pharisees or ink and paper for unbelievers today.)
After God reveals the Truth(christ) you have the option of obeying what you hear or not. What you hear is words, but God can make those words life.
Now there is a difference between the faith in Romans that justifies and the faith in James that can be dead or perfect. The works in Romans is talking about the law while James is in no way talking about the law but about obedience and action with your belief. Because perfect faith is more than just believing. Pistis is the greek word for faith and it is a verb. This means faith is an action. James contrasts belief and belief in action. If you don't obey your belief, your faith is dead. If you do obey, your works(works here not meaning the law but obedience to the truth) mingle together to make perfect faith which can save, move mountains, and heal. It can do anything.
WHAT IS THE MAIN INGREDIENT FOR SALVATION. I say its not perfect faith, but love for God. Because Faith comes from God. And God will give you faith if you love him.
Faith worketh by love.
Ultimately i say this. God doesn't decide good or evil only by faith but by love. Because love produces faith. "love believeth all things." God is truth. And when you love God, you love truth and believe truth.
i must contradict one thing logic.. Saving Faith is not an obligation of man or else it would be a work and you could earn salvation. You see. Saving Faith comes from God, which he gives you when you love him.
"according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith."
I encourage everybody that reads this to meditate much on it as this post has brought me to an exciting revelation. Bless God and thank you so much again logic for your love for God.
_________________
Matt Chenier
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| | 2006/11/20 20:12 | Profile | DesiJr
Member
Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113
| | Re: | | So according to andres' comments 1st God gives you a new heart, then you have faith to believe and be saved? |
| | 2006/11/22 12:42 | Profile | andres
Member
Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville
| | Re: | | how can a man submit to God and believe to salvation when that man : hates God, is blinded, and not sorry for willfully sinning against a Holy God.
Unless....
God takes that man and breaks his heart, makes that mans heart over and put his Spirit to give that man life to Believe with Loving perfect faith. that my Christian brothers is GRACE!!! God chosing a sinful dirty creature like us, who deaserve the lowest and hottest section of hell, and justifing us to become a son in His everlasting kingdome.. This is Grace thru and thru , And It's from God alone, Please let us not put our dirty little hands on God Pure everlasting Grace by saying it was "OUR" faith that saved us.
love
andy
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andy
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| | 2006/11/22 13:50 | Profile | DesiJr
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Joined: 2006/1/6
Posts: 113
| | Re: | | "let us not put our dirty little hands on God Pure everlasting Grace by saying it was "OUR" faith that saved us."
Is this a biblical statement?
Isaiah 7:9..stand firm in your faith
Mat 9:22...your faith has healed you
Mat 9:29 according to your faith will it be done
Luke 7:50...YOUR FAITH HAS SAVED YOU
Luke 17:19.....your faith has made you well
1cor 15:14...if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
1Peter 1:9...RECEIVING THE END OF YOUR FAITH, EVEN THE SALVATION OF YOUR SOULS.
I love God and You Guys,
Desi |
| | 2006/11/22 14:57 | Profile | andres
Member
Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville
| | Re: | | " our faith " is our work, in thinking that we can produce something to satisfy God's requiremnents..
remember where does a christian's faith comes from..
.. "every Good thing comes from above"... your scripture quotes are valid, but again, what is the motivating force behind a christians' faith?
and where does that force come from?
_________________
andy
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| | 2006/11/22 15:22 | Profile |
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