Poster | Thread | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Faith comes before salvation | | After a while of thinking on this, I've come to the conclussion that faith is not a gift to be given but a moral responsability and obligation that one has from the begining as an inherant attribut. Faith is an attribute equal to fidelity.
[b]Romans 10:17[/b] [color=990000]So, consequently, faith is by hearing, but hearing through the word of God.[/color] What this means is that when someone opens the Scriptures, they are revieling truths that persuade one to act with obediance and trust in whom the Scritures are writen from.
[b]2Thes 2:10[/b] [color=990000]and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.[/color] This verse describes them that did not recieve faith because they love not the truth. [u]Truth is actualy a term for reality[/u].
in other words [b]Romans 10:17[/b] sais, faith is by aknowlaging the truth heard, and accepting and acting upon it as the word of God which is the basis of truth.
Faith is a moral obligation that all men have to start with, otherwise, how would God judge one with out giveing the faith to the person being judged? |
| 2006/11/9 10:33 | Profile | bluinos Member

Joined: 2005/2/4 Posts: 78
| Re: Faith comes before salvation | | Quote:
in other words [b]Romans 10:17[/b] sais, faith is by aknowlaging the truth heard, and accepting and acting upon it as the word of God which is the basis of truth.
Faith is a moral obligation that all men have to start with, otherwise, how would God judge one with out giveing the faith to the person being judged?
I dont know if this happens to everyone, but there are times when you hear God speak and you dont know how to answer. I like it when this happens it reminds me of the Ark of the Covenant being brought back to Jerusalem.
II Samuel chapter 6 verse six: But when they arrived at the threshing floor of Nacon, the oxen stumbled, and Uzzah put out his hand to steady the Ark of God. (7) Then the Lords anger blazed out against Uzzah for doing this, and God struck him dead beside the Ark of God.
II Samuel chapter 6 verse nine David was now afraid of the Lord and asked, How can I ever bring the Ark of the Lord back into my care? (10) So David decided not to move the Ark of the Lord into the City of David. He took it instead to the home of Obed-edom of Gath. (11) The Ark of the Lord remained there with the family of Obed-edom for three months, and the Lord blessed him and his entire household.
THE PRESENCE OF THE LORD faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God
I find his WORD to be very much like this Ark if not entirely The "Ark"
[color=0033FF]Your words spoke to me in an area where i needed to respond/My Vow[/color] |
| 2006/11/9 13:46 | Profile | Christinyou Member

Joined: 2005/11/2 Posts: 3710 Ca.
| Re: | | Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
The measure of faith. The word faith here is most evidently put for religion, or Christianity. Faith is the main thing in religion. It constitutes its first demand; and the Christian religion, therefore, is characterized by its faith, or its confidence in God. See Mr 16:16. Comp. Heb 11:1-40; Ro 4:1-25. We are not therefore to be elated in our view of ourselves; we are not to judge of our own characters by wealth, or talent, or learning; but by our attachment to God, and by the influence of faith on our minds. The meaning is, judge yourselves, or estimate yourselves, by your piety. The propriety of this rule is apparent,
(1.) because no other standard is a correct one, or one of value. Our talent, learning, rank, or wealth, is a very improper rule by which to estimate ourselves. All may be wholly unconnected with moral worth; and the worst as well as the best men may possess them.
(2.) God will judge us in the day of judgment by our attachment to Christ and His Faith, (Mt 25:1-46) and that is the true standard by which to estimate ourselves here. Like the 5 virgins that did not trim their lamps (faith of Christ)or have any oil,(Holy Spirit), we must trust in the Life and Faith of Jesus Christ as our only means to a Christ Faith Filled heart and Mind that is His in expression to the world.
(3.) Nothing else will secure and promote humility but this. All other things may produce or promote pride, but this will effectually secure humility. The fact that God has given all that we have; most of effect the the life we not live we live by the Faith of the Son of God by His Mind that is not in us, the fact that the poor and obscure may have as true an elevation of character as ourselves; the consciousness of our own imperfections and short-comings in the Christian faith; (Christ ones Faith) and the certainty that we are soon to be arraigned to try this great question, whether we have evidence that we are the friends of God, will all tend to promote humbleness of mind, and to bring down our usual inordinate self-estimation. If all Christians judged themselves in this way, it would remove at once no small part of the pride of station and of life from the world, and would produce deep attachment for those who are blessed with the Faith of Christ living in the gospel, even though they may be unadorned by any of the wealth or trappings which now promote pride and distinctions among men. Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 2:19-20 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Let us live by the Faith that is come by Jesus Christ unto our Father, knowing that His Faith is the only acceptance by the Father unto our Life in Christ.
In Christ: Phillip _________________ Phillip
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| 2006/11/9 19:15 | Profile | mamaluk Member

Joined: 2006/6/12 Posts: 524
| Re: Faith comes before salvation | | Quote:
Faith is a moral obligation that all men have to start with, otherwise, how would God judge one with out giveing the faith to the person being judged?
Logic,
Interesting that you brought this up. I pondered over this as well for the longest time. I have also long since reckoned faith and Word as inseparable, edit, add.for the Christians. Faith without God's Word (in any form) is not faith but mere imagination. In other words,in a sense, faith by way of one's acknowledgment/belief of the Word(written and living), has come in as a gift package, just as what you quoted," faith cometh by hearing, hearing, by the Word of God ". However, with this particular verse in mind, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
God would probably judge one by Grace dispised, or the gift( of faith and Word) refused. Just as Esau dispised his birthright. No one can really claims before Him as to one not "given" that faith, because that faith has been given through the Word.
Am I confusing you? probably.. :)
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| 2006/11/9 20:23 | Profile | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Re: | | Wasn't it faith with the woman that Jesus called a dog?(Mat 15:24-28) Wasn't it faith with the centirian that bid Jesus not to come with him but to only say a word?(Mat 8:9-10) All these had faith with out being saved. |
| 2006/11/9 20:25 | Profile | mamaluk Member

Joined: 2006/6/12 Posts: 524
| Re: | | apparently they [i]heard[/i]
edit. confused! what were you getting at? |
| 2006/11/9 20:29 | Profile | Christinyou Member

Joined: 2005/11/2 Posts: 3710 Ca.
| Re: | | Faith is a gift of God, all faith. Even the Faith of Jesus Christ, since He left all His personal attributes in a place where He had to depend on His Father to do all things and learned discipline by the things He suffered. His Faith came by the power of God the Father.
1Cr 13:2 And though I have [the gift of] prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
What is lacking in faith? It is Love. Faith without the Love of Christ and the Father and by the Holy Spirit is nothing. How could anybody know the love that rules Faith if Christ did not die on the Cross for the Love of His Father for His elect. No man new that mystery until it was accomplished on the Cross, that is why Paul says, "it is Christ in you the Hope of Glory".
That has been God's complaint all along, I give you a law and you make the Law your God. I give you my Son and you make the Law your salvation. What I have wanted all along is your Love because It is your God who love you first. Please by the Faith I have given you in My Son and His love, by giving Himself for you in love, Love me back as I have put that Love in you by giving you new birth in Christ Jesus so you can understand the things of My Kingdom. Jhn 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Jhn 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
This is the Power of the Faith of Jesus Christ that is now in believers by the new birth.
In the Love of Christ: Phillip _________________ Phillip
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| 2006/11/9 23:18 | Profile | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote: Faith is a gift of God, all faith.
I disagree:
Strong Greek #4102 πίστις pistis ,(pis'-tis) From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.
Can one be given any of this?
Faith is also a response to truth and response can not be a gift. [b]Ephes 2:8[/b] [color=990000]by the kindness of God you are saved, through responding to Him, and this not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;[/color] |
| 2006/11/9 23:55 | Profile | Christinyou Member

Joined: 2005/11/2 Posts: 3710 Ca.
| Re: | | "Can one be given any of this?"
All of it. Praise God.
1Cr 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
1Cr 8:2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
With out Christ, Faith is nothing and our love is as dirty rags. The Faith of Christ with the Love of Christ in us we can do all things by presenting all men perfect in Christ Jesus.
Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
All this in Christ Jesus, perfect in His Wisdom, Perfect in His Faith, Perfect in His Love, Justified and Made Perfect by His Righteousness, Perfect Redemption in Him, Perfect Sanctification made unto us by the Father.
1 Corinthians 1:29-31 That no flesh should glory in His presence. But of Him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
I Praise God for the Faith He has given me to be conformed to the Mind of Christ, by renewing my mind by the Holy Spirit of God to the Mind of Christ which He has given me.
By the Faith of Jesus Christ: Phillip
Who's Faith are we Justified by? Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
"by the Faith of Jesus Christ" "that we might be Justified by the Faith of Jesus Christ" Amen
We are dead on the Cross. Our faith died with Christ on the Cross. Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me.. Who's Faith??????? _________________ Phillip
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| 2006/11/10 3:12 | Profile | Logic Member

Joined: 2005/7/17 Posts: 1791
| Re: | | Quote:
Christinyou wrote: "Can one be given any of this?"
All of it. Praise God.
You are saying that we can be persuaded( as in being given the truth), but I am saying that we are not given the persuasion it's self( as in taking the moral dicission).
We must decide for our self, God does not decide for us or make us decide.
Faith is the decission, not being given the truth to choose from.
Nonetheless, you are correct in all of wht you said, but you have misunderstood my point. I do appologize for not being more clear.
1Cr 4:4 [color=990000]For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.[/color] Faith is not the knowlege, but the choice to stand on the knowlege.
Quote:
With out Christ, Faith is nothing and our love is as dirty rags. The Faith of Christ with the Love of Christ in us we can do all things by presenting all men perfect in Christ Jesus.
Our faith in Christ is our obediance of standing on His Word and trusting Him by knowing who He is. He won't give us our obediance, we must choose to obay. He won't give us the trust, but we must choose to trust. Faith is the decission. |
| 2006/11/10 10:08 | Profile |
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