| Poster | Thread | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | What I find most interesting about this, is that others knew about his gay tendencies before this came out. It was not a simple fall into sin, and after listening to an interview with his escort, I am even more convinced that there are more men that Ted was involved with.
I wonder why it is that noone wanted to confront this man, yet an unsaved gay man says that he had to do something because this man was a hypocrite, and was influencing young people. It is a sad day when the world must rebuke the church!!
Pray for the escort Mike Jones, as he has received death threats from "christians", while others have thanke him for exposing this man. Pray that he would come to repentance, and salvation. He admits that he was raised in the United Methodist Church, so who knows what he heard, but God is able !
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patrick heaviside
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|  2006/11/14 16:47 | Profile | death2self
Member
Joined: 2006/9/28
Posts: 192
Washington DC area
| | Re: | | Quote:
It is a sad day when the world must rebuke the church!!
That's said but true.
I would encourage you to look at this article in the Washington Post last week on
[url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/08/AR2006110801703.html]Haggard Begins Spiritual 'Restoration'[/url]. Is there no power in the blood of Jesus to cleanse a man or woman's heart from sin? (That's a rhetorical question but you will understand my point once you look closely at the article.)
I pray for real repentance for this man.
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Ed Pugh
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| | 2006/11/14 17:02 | Profile |
| | Re: | | It baffles my mind how someone could be hiding this kind of sin, yet accept a position like his was in a very powerful Christian organization... and then speak publicly as he did against the very sins he was committing. I just cant wrap my brain around that.
Everytime I teach on something that I know I struggle with, I have an inner battle between me and God that goes something like this:
"God... I cant teach this! I'm guilty!"
"My son... take the log from your eye, and then you teach my people."
In other words, many times I've been broken before God before bringing a teaching before others. I tell them "You think I'm teaching something hard? I get this message days before you do! You get the filtered version... I get the full blunt force of it from the Father!"
So how does someone like Haggard do what he did... and then condemn it in front of the entire nation with apparently no fear that he'll be exposed? Or maybe he did fear it. Can you imagine the stress that had to create for him?
Krispy |
| | 2006/11/14 17:10 | | chadster
Member
Joined: 2006/1/8
Posts: 58
| | Re: God is cleansing the church | | This just came through to my e-mail. I'm sure some of you don't endorse some charismatic streams, but I believe this is a right on word from Cindy Jacobs:
God is Cleansing the Church
Many prophets today sense that the Holy Spirit is calling the church to a higher standard of holiness. After the recent national elections, Cindy Jacobs received the following prophetic word about a coming wave of purging and repentance that will begin with God's people. In the word, God exhorts us not to be discouraged about the results of the election but to sanctify ourselves, continue to pray, and trust Him to bring cleansing to the church and the nation.
As I have been in prayer about the results of the Nov. 7 midterm elections, I have felt the Lord speak a very clear word to me. It is taken from the book of Joshua. This is what the Lord said to me:
"For I am not a man that I take sides in terms of political persuasion, but rather I am the commander of the hosts of heaven. I am a righteous God, and My army cannot cross over and take the promised land without the establishment of a holy army.
This is a time that judgment must begin at the house of God. I am shaking everything that can be shaken, but unholiness cannot overthrow unholiness.
Do not think that your prayers are not availing in the heavens because you do not get the answers in the way you think they should be given. Your prayers are pressing out the wickedness in My people first. There is more that is going to be exposed of leaders in homosexuality and sexual wickedness. The court of heaven has been convened through your intercession, and I am shaking the church and political parties and all things that can be shaken.
I would say to you, ' I never lose, and I have not lost this election.' Unrighteousness is now on trial and I say to you, 'Sanctify yourselves, Church, for there is a movement of the fear of the Lord about to fall on the land.' I say to you: 'This is a time of circumcision and it is painful. My sword is cutting away all hidden and secret sin.'
Remember that I am the God who takes My people from the defeats of Ai and brings them to victory in the land. Shake off defeat and do not be discouraged, for I have a righteous remnant and a plan to defeat abortion and defeat wickedness. There is a champion with the heart of a David that I will raise up for such a time as this, once I have released my cleansing flood.
I say: 'Stand firm, and know that retreat is not an option, for there are great stakes at hand. Rally yourselves together and do not disperse in the day of battle. Rise up with the spirit of David, and surely you will defeat the giants in the land. Loose the spirit of Zerubbabel in the land, for it is not by might, nor by power, but by the Spirit,' says the Lord of hosts, 'that I will move with a mighty revival upon this land after I have removed the filthy garments from my Joshuas (see Zech. 3 and 4).
Shake off discouragement, and do not stop praying and do not think that I am not listening. Trust Me that I overcome all attacks of Satan and will raise up a righteous party who will fight for justice."
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| | 2006/11/14 17:17 | Profile | lovegrace
Member
Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313
| | Re: Pray for Ted Haggard | | was this before or after the Teg Haggard thing?
And also, when is God NOT trying to cleanse His church? ALWAYS! |
| | 2006/11/14 17:52 | Profile | IWantAnguish
Member
Joined: 2006/6/15
Posts: 343
| | Re: If you can't believe... | | If you can't believe all that's going on in Ted Haggard's life, his immorality / deceit etc... that's because you are proud.
All of us could be much worse if it was not for the common grace of God that withheld us from falling into these same sins.
But do you really believe that ?
It's time to get down about our sins, get real with it, stop holding onto our illusion of self-righteousness, and beg Christ to cover us with His blood...
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Sba
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| | 2006/11/14 19:40 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
KrispyKrittr wrote:
So how does someone like Haggard do what he did... and then condemn it in front of the entire nation with apparently no fear that he'll be exposed? Or maybe he did fear it. Can you imagine the stress that had to create for him?
I have to say that I get it, because I have been there. I must say though, Krispy this kind of thing occuring really drives home the "superiority" of a "house church" expression of worship, over the "institutional".
For these "professional types", there is so much riding on what they do, as far as needing to support their family, or whatever, that the temptation is to sweep sin under the carpet, rather than allow it to be exposed. Imagine the fear associated with that attitude, especially in light of what Haggard has been hiding. Perhaps he thought that he was only doing it "temporarily" while he sorted out his issuses, and then would come out as one with a "testimony of victory"?
I know for myself, I wrestled with pornography and masturbation, while I was in the youth ministry. In my mind, I thought that if I came out, I would have to step down, and there would be no one there for the kids. The fact is, it came to a point where I did "have" to come clean, because my behaviour began to escalate. Sadly, out of all the kids that I ministered to, around 5% are still in church.
If I'm honest, looking back, I wasn't even saved in that time, but was a mere "poster boy" for all that the system represented. I preached the hardest, prayed the hardest, had all my apologetic ducks in a row, and shared my faith regularly. I was fully convinced that the Bible was inerrant, that homosexuality, abortion, fornication, etc was sinful, and would preach against it, so that people wouldn't end up being "like me" or worse.
For myself, being in that place was a living hell. I once heard someone say that the backslider is truly a tragic figure because he has enough of [b]God in him to not enjoy sin[/b], and enough [b]sin in him to not enjoy God[/b]. I could relate to that. Psychologists would tell us that, as parents, our greatest fears are usually that our children would grow up to be like us. We end up spending most our time trying to discipline them when they do the tings that we do/did, that have been damaging to us. This is done, not realising that they can benefit from those same qualities, if they are better directed.
For myself, a similar logic applied to my ministry, in that I fought hard to stop them becoming what I was becoming, thinking that I was qualified to do so, on the basis that I was there, and knew how I got there. I also knew that they looked up to me, and wanted to emulate me, so I tried to conceal the behaviour, just in case they sought to replicate that also. My fall from grace was very dramtic, and handled secretly, at the request of my pastor.
The sad thing is, when I see some of those youth today, they look back to that time as the only period of "authentic Christianity" that they had lived, because I preached a straight message and went through the motions, like few others did. They tell me this when I tell them the tale of God's dealings with me, and how he has been slowly breaking and reforming me over the past two or three years. They tell me in the spirit of "Don't be so hard on yourself, it wasn't all that bad" and when I gently unveil the reality of what was going on, they usually go into a stunned silence, as they start to consider if their experiences with God have ever been real, also. Thankfully, the Lord has often graciously led them into reality, as a result, but sadly for some, the damage had already been done.
My other dealings in this area came just before I began coming to SermonIndex. I had just made the decision to break free from a pornograhic addiction which I had been hiding from my wife around two years. Again, I felt that to expose myself would cause more damage than help, and so I thought to myself, "What's the problem? It's no longer happening, so nobody needs to know." Again I was aware of the fact that porn is sin, and I loathed sin, so therefore I loathed myself.
After a one day relapse, my wife found out, and I was faced with the choice of lying about it, or confessing. I had actually taken pains to establish a water tight alliby, and had denied it when she confronted me with it. Thankfully I did come clean, and after nearly losing my marriage as a result of the pornography, the lies about it, and my violent reaction to her hurting behaviour over the whole thing, we did come to the point of reconciliation. Don't get me wrong, the nerves are still raw, and possibly could be forever, but the fact is, there is no doubt of our love for each other after coming through such a firey trial (for those who know about my present personal issues, they have contributed to the present situatuion, on top of a multitude of others).
It has only been over the past month or so that I have began speaking to people about this (except for to the people who knew what was going on, at the time) because I felt it important that I received no social benefit from this experience, until I knew that I was capable of allowing God to receive the glory without my touching it. I discussed it with my wife, because she had mentioned the fact that she didn't want people to know, at the time, and she encouraged me to tell. She had actually reached the point where she was concerned that I might by hiding tha fact from people, in order to hide my weaknesses from them (terrible balancing act, this life).
Two weeks ago, when I told a young man that has continually insisted upon "placing himself under my wing", the poor guy was brought face to face with his need to surrender to God, after seeing the extent of the terms that God required of my for mine. I say this not to boast, for I have nothing to boast of, because it was only by my shameful actions (which still fill me with feelings of self loathing whenever I consider them) that I could be brought to this point, because I am such a proud man, by nature.
For those who have been around here a while, you may remember that I was extremely contentious when I got here, and then suddenly I dropped off the face of the earth, so to speak, and came back a degree softer than when I left. Well this is what was going on at the time. All of my theories were being put to the test, and I came up with a big fat "F"...but that's what God was waiting for.
The point is this, while bound in pornography, I was a zealot for truth, harsh against sin, and active [b]for[/b] God. I was still "dazzling people" with the revelations that I put forth (much of which has since been proved erroneous) and my wife looked up to me, as the one in the relationship who was "spiritual". To lose this was too high a price to pay, and I was incapable of paying it willingly, in order to be set free from my sin, and so God graciously allowed me the shame of being exposed.
The whole time that I had allowed myself to participate in that sin, the shame that I felt was so intense, that it felt like I had been violated, except that I was my own assailant. This meant that any desire for revenge had to be self directed. Being both guilty and victim at the same time, forgiveness seemed impossible, because I couldn't justify forgiving myself, and yet I knew that that was the key to receiving forgiveness that I knew I didn't deserve.
Note that I am in no way justifying this behaviour. Just as the ultimate demonstration of God's love, that being the Cross, doesn't justify sin as it justifes the sinner, neither do resulting benefits justify these horrific actions, regardless of motive. I will need to endure the shame of knowing that this "amazing grace" has "saved a [b]WRETCH[/b] like me" until my dying day, and it will never allow me the luxury of thinking highly of myself. But isn't that the way it's meant to be? The point is that He can do something through me, not that I can do something for him.
I am so glad that I have been [b]reduced[/b] to a mere set of fingers behind a keyboard who can facelessly share my opinions in relative "thankless anominity". My more [b]physical component[/b] has the privilidge enduring the shame of counterfeigt converts' resistance, while attending a fellowship containing proported believers, as well as multiplied rejection at the hands of hecklers while preaching from a soap box. This misunderstanding is so much greater a compliment than all the accolades that I received as a "minister of the gospel". The ultimate irony being, that I now feel that I am one, while then I tried to be one with all my might.
He is the one who deserves [b]all[/b] the glory, and I, for one, am more than happy to let Him have what He deserves, in its entirety. If this is what I costs for Him to have it, then I'll sell all that I have to pay it (and then max out my credit cards:-)).
(Sorry for the length, I get a bit carried away sometimes)
_________________
Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/11/14 20:20 | Profile | Compton
Member
Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Good discussions ...
I thought Ginnyrose raised a crucial question not just for Mr. Haggard, but for the Church in general:
Quote:
One thing that seems to be ignored is that this man was imvolved in sin for a long time....Was the Holy Spirit not there convicting him?
Not wanting to contemplate the awful implication of this question may be what hinders true revival...are many churched people gospel-proof?
Quote:
We do well to accept what he has said and not impede his repentence by making excuses for him.
Indeed. Many Christians will rush to offer him cheap human forgiveness...to offer psycological relief from the rocky soil-plowing cut of repentence that must be felt. How long do we make the Lord wait while we 'forgive' the never-ending money grubbing, carousing in broad daylight, purposeful and systematic efforts to decieve, rivers of adultery, and boastful trampling of where the sheep must eat?
Because the church is generally unrepentent and irreverant to God, all that many defeated Christians can offer one another is quick forgiveness...not out of divine love but of an unspoken social contract with one another to remain accepting of 'reasonable" quotas. It is this institutionalized indifference to the Lord's heart, perfumed with sentimental fiat grace, that will become our judgement.
So perhaps the reason many of us 'forgive' Ted Haggard is because we know he is us. While the desire to be even-handed is commendable it avoids the deeper, more important, and eternally significant question...the one that Ginnyrose implied. "Why doesn't sin bother those who claim to walk with Christ? I ask this without haughty resentment, but as one who has indeed made that claim... with awful contradiction.
It is not Ted Haggard that astonishes me...but my own capacity for self-deception. In all this I continue to remain pursuaded that revival will not be the simple ingredient of 'excitement' added to our present churches...but a completely new (or old) confrontation with the Gospel that causes false converts to see Christ.
"My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you.
Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.""
Blessings,
MC
(Edit: Thanks so much Clarkforest...while I was posting this, your testimony amplified and exceeded much more then I could say. Amazing clarity...Blessings and grace brother.)
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Mike Compton
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| | 2006/11/14 20:35 | Profile | lovegrace
Member
Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313
| | Re: | | I believe Zac Poonen as long as many other men said 'It's hard to fall when you on your face'. |
| | 2006/11/14 21:32 | Profile | Mattie
Member
Joined: 2004/7/23
Posts: 210
| | Re: | | Read the Word of God with the lenses of the cross of Christ. The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
We can forget that Jesus came into the world FULL of grace AND truth. Sometimes we are so zealous on textual truth that we miss the life and grace of Jesus Christ that saves the sinner and RESTORES THE BACKSLIDER.
Galatians 6:1 "If ANY MAN is caught in a trespass, YOU who are spiritual should restore that man with a spirit of gentleness, considering yourselves lest yu also be tempted."
then v.3 says "If anyone thinks himself to be something when he is nothing, he is DECEIVED."
Ted Haggard's fall is not only exposing sin already taking place in the church, it is going to expose proudful people to who feel superior than he does.
The cross is humility, humility not only before a godless sinner but before an apostate church. We must take heed lest we fall |
| | 2006/11/14 22:25 | Profile |
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